where not to get your ingredients

should you not get ingredients from places like amazon, ebay etc

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    You should only get ingredients from places that you know and trust. Second hand retailers like Amazon and eBay would not be reliable enough for me but that's a personal choice.
  • ZinkZink Member
    edited January 7
    Agree with Perry, from best to worst:

    1. Reputable suppliers directly found through e.g. ulprospector (MOQs can be high)
    2. Reputable repackagers like lotioncrafter or makingcosmetics, ideally with COAs (they buy from suppliers and repackage / rename the raws to sell them in smaller quantities at a 30-70% markup).
    3. Amazon (there's a review system and amazon has good return policies)
    4. Ebay (poor return options, no product reviews)
  • SpongeSponge Member
    It’s worth noting that Amazon reviews are all pooled into the same product listing. Seller A, B and C can all sell via product listing X. The reviews received by seller A, B and C will all show, without distinction, under product listing X. So you can see great reviews but then get a poor ingredient from a poor seller (because no one ever specifies which seller they purchased from).
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited January 8
    Sorry guys but I must disagree on that. Makingcosmetics sell many of their ingredients on Amazon.uk. There is another repackager called mystic moments. They sell ingredients both through Amazon.com and Amazon.uk, it's a rather reliable repackager who sells ingredients like pure D5 and 80% lactic acid for example. You can also get USP and BP grades of ingredients such as sodium metabisulfite on amazon. It's not black and white, you should know what you are getting.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    It also depends on what you are going to do with the ingredients. If you are just looking to make products for yourself at home then you can be a bit looser with your standards. But if you are intent on creating product that you want to sell, working directly with manufacturers or certified distributors is the way to go.
  • Yes, unfortunately, ingredients sold by repackagers are compromised from day 1. They buy 25kg drum and then decant it thousand times into 100 ml bottles which allows dust, air and microorganisms into the material. There are a couple of ways to make the situation better. I boil my deionised water (because I don't have any guarantees on whether it's sterile or not), add EDTA, add two broad-spectrum preservatives of a different type (like phenonip and germall), for which I check the expiration dates and since recently (after I grew some nasty fungae in a facewash that was preserved with parabens) I knocked out all sorts of bug food. Not like I was using much before, but apparently what is ok for large companies not ok for a home crafter. And I totally agree none of it is sufficient if you are going to sell. But getting certain ingredients from Amazon is ok as long as you know the supplier. 
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited January 8
    @ngarayeva001
    You really don't need sterile water for cosmetics. You're not going to inject it I hope? ;) (Plus boiling won't sterilize it)

    I am really curious what else was in that facewash? I've never had any visible growth so far in any of my formulas, even the creams that I've preserved with Euxyl 9010 at 1%. And I've even used collodial oatmeal for a while at 2.5%, years ago. 

    (Edit: I forgot to mention that parabens can get inactivated by surfactants. I believe it's also mentioned in a Phenonip document.)
  • Just to upset all of you, I buy the more exotic materials direct from China, by post, and have never had a problem.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @Belassi, I would assume you know who exactly you are buying from. 
  • @Doreen, I really hope that bacteria that can exist at extreme temperatures (extremophiles?) are not present in that fancy overpriced distilled water I buy from Amazon  😂 
  • Doreen said:
    @ngarayeva001
    You really don't need sterile water for cosmetics. You're not going to inject it I hope? ;) (Plus boiling won't sterilize it)

    I am really curious what else was in that facewash? I've never had any visible growth so far in any of my formulas, even the creams that I've preserved with Euxyl 9010 at 1%. And I've even used collodial oatmeal for a while at 2.5%, years ago. 

    (Edit: I forgot to mention that parabens can get inactivated by surfactants. I believe it's also mentioned in a Phenonip document.)
    Hi Doreen,

    Not to be difficult, but I do believe boiling water can sterilize it. The center for disease control and the EPA both say a rolling boil for one minute will do it. Now, if this is necessary (sterile water) is arguable. Some (me) might suggest that a sterile substrate is easier to colonize and thus, contaminate. 

    Also, the rolling boil for one minute is for drinking water I presume. It should be noted (again, this is just something I’m remembering) that heating water insufficently can activate certain pathogenic spores, leading to their germination. Basically - either heat it well or don’t do it at all IMO.
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited January 15
    @Sponge
    Hi Sponge.
    Sterile water means water with no single microbe present (and often, when used parenterally, it is meant that it contains no pyrogens, which are simply said the 'mortal remains' of killed microbes, which can be removed by e.g. a filtration procedure). You won't achieve this by simply boiling your water for one minute. If it would be this easy, we wouldn't need autoclaves in the hospitals, where products are steam sterilized under a certain pressure and temperature, for a certain time, depending on protocol, what will be sterilized (e.g. at a pressure of 500 pKa for fifteen minutes on a constant temperature of 121°C).

    Of course the center for disease control does advise in some areas to boil drinking water as this will kill a lot of pathogenic microbes and will drastically lower the chance of becoming sick. Especially in areas where the water quality is questionable. However it won't sterilize it (thus kill all microbes).
    An interesting read about 'behaviour' of bacterial spores:
    https://asknature.org/strategy/spores-provide-dormancy-at-high-temperature/

    Using sterile excipients and utensils when making skincare is really overkill.
    Sterile water is only helpful when all other excipients, utensils and packaging are sterile, like for example a sterile medicinal ophthalmic ointment that's used ón the eye.
    Then a sterilized disposable mortar and pestle and other sterile utensils are used, along with the sterilized ingredients, in a laminated airflow cabinet in an ISO certified class B (or higher) cleanroom, wearing sterilized gloves and protective clothing and finally put in a sterilized packaging (mostly a disposable unit dose of 5 grams).
    Or simply said, if the final product isn't sterile, doesn't have to be sterile, there is no use (and a waste of money) to use one (or more) sterile excipient(s).
    You should however, use ingredients from a well known source, a source that can assure you with documentation informing about the absence of pathogenic microbes, e.g. E-coli species, Salmonella species. And work as clean as possible (in accordance with cGMP) and make sure it is properly preserved.

    Edited some typos.
  • Agilischemicals.com supplies ingredients for cosmetics manufacturers..free registration and no added fees
  • derekmorgen9derekmorgen9 Member
    edited February 5
    https://promotion.agilischemicals.com/hexylene-glycol to get started on a hexylene glycol quote, US only!
  • AgateAgate Member
    @Doreen Well said, thank you.
  • On the topic of where not to get your ingredients....
    Got this email today.  Biosil is the vendor 

  • I would rather not contract the coronavirus and die, than have trouble with Chinese supplies. The videos I have seen today... the news media is suppressing the truth.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    This demonstrates the real problem of using single sourced materials. If your source runs out, so does your business.
  • Belassi said:
    I would rather not contract the coronavirus and die, than have trouble with Chinese supplies. The videos I have seen today... the news media is suppressing the truth.
    Yes. The situation is far worse than what the communist country is saying. 
    So incredibly sad. 

    Perry-yep. I generally steer clear from Chinese products.  I generally just don’t trust what’s in the bottle.  Didn’t realize the Phytic acid sample I received was manufactured in China until I read the specification sheet.  
  • Most chemicals are manufactured in China these days.
    While they have some top quality manufacurers, i.e. those meant to be redistributed by Sigma-Aldrich (lab grade), they also have some with very sloppy or no quality control.

    If you steer away from chinese products, you're shooting yourself in the foot, as it severly limits your choice of available products.

    The virus itself can't feed or reproduce in chemicals or equipment. It needs live humans or animals.
    Some suppliers are taking advantage of the coronavirus mass hysteria to jack up prices for no real reason.
  • AgateAgate Member
    It's clear that the numbers don't represent the true extent of the outbreak, but I wouldn't worry about contracting the virus via shipments from China. Its close relative, the MERS-CoV can only remain viable on plastic and metal surfaces for 48 hours (https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/factsheet-health-professionals-coronaviruses), and similar values most likely apply to 2019-nCoV.
  • Belassi said:
    Just to upset all of you, I buy the more exotic materials direct from China, by post, and have never had a problem.
       :D So hilarious. I love reading your input on these forums. I’ve seen you mention your purchase methods a few times - What’s your typical wait time for these products? 
  • From China, typically two to three weeks. The amusing thing is that I have never had a problem importing all sorts of powders, white and otherwise, from China, by post. But if sent by courier eg DHL... stopped by customs.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
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