Preservative for nonionic surfactant shampoo

What gentle preservative should be used for this nonionic surfactant shampoo formula? 
Aqua to 100%
Decyl glucoside 10% active 
Capryl/capryl glucoside 14% active 
Glycerin 4% 
Cationic guar gum 0.5% 
Sweet almond oil 1% 
EO 0.5%
Preservative ? 
pH 4-5 with citric acid

According to research lot of antibacterial preservatives are deactivated by nonionic surfactant like 
Benzyl alcohol 
Phenethyl alcohol
Phenoxythanol 
Caprylyl Glycol 
Glyceryl caprylate. 

We have decided to use caprylhydroxamic acid which is anti fungal. Just don't know which gentle antibacterial to use with it which is not deactivated by nonionic surfactant and to make it broad spectrum. 

Thanks for advices 🙋🏻‍♂️

Comments

  • Germall plus doesn’t get deactivated by highly ethoxylated compounds.
  • Thanks ngarayeva001. Any preservative which is in ecocert standard or ewg rated 1 or 2?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Abdullah:

    What is the pH of you final formula?  That will determine to a great extent what preservatives are appropriate.  FYI:  Caprylhydroxamic Acid ... I don't use it as it has proven to be too weak for broad spectrum.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • If you want to follow ECOCERT it’s your choice but EWG is pseudoscience. They spread harmful misinformation and confuse consumers.
  • Thanks MarkBroussard
    pH is between 4-5. 
    Caprylhydroxamic acid is for fungi, what anti bacterial to use with it to make it broad spectrum? 
  • Thanks ngarayeva001
    Any suggestion on preservative then? 
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 17
    OMG! Tough one!

    I say DMDM Hydantoin. But of course EWG says it is deadly. My only preservative is DMDM Hydantoin. I am too frightened to even try other eco, green, safe, organic, natural ones. I am waiting for my good self and others who use my DMDM Hydantoin-laden moisturiser die painfully!  >:)

    pH between 4 and 5...This one is easy. You probably can use a mixture of Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Gluconate (or Glucono delta Lactone or Gluconic Acid). Add in Salicylic Acid if you feel adventurous.

    Very natural. Very board spectrum. Very approved.

    Erm...Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as natural and as edible and as ubiquitous as they are, they have their own warnings and countless users' complaints.

    Even Glycerin/Glycerol whatever one believes, thinks, heard, seen 'safe' there is always warnings and complaints.

    There is always somebody allergic to something. Likewise, there is always someone (politically correct crazy) sensitive about every single bloody dayum thang.

    Sodium metal per se is lethal. Chlorine gas is deadly. Together they become Sodium Chloride, table salt, very safe to be touched and eaten. BUT....but it can be very bad if used concentrated. Glycerin is like that too. So does this mean EWG should also put table salt and Glycerin in the danger zone? I won't be surprised if they already did!

    Oh, Glycerin is also used as an anti-freeze! We're gonna die! Table salt can be used as anti-freeze as well! Both of them are commonly used to reduce or totally eliminate crystallisation of sugar (in baking) and lower down freezing point. Hence, anti-freeze is born! We're certainly gonna die!
  • AzizAziz Member
    OMG! Tough one!

    I say DMDM Hydantoin. But of course EWG says it is deadly. My only preservative is DMDM Hydantoin. I am too frightened to even try other eco, green, safe, organic, natural ones. I am waiting for my good self and others who use my DMDM Hydantoin-laden moisturiser die painfully!  >:)

    pH between 4 and 5...This one is easy. You probably can use a mixture of Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Gluconate (or Glucono delta Lactone or Gluconic Acid). Add in Salicylic Acid if you feel adventurous.

    Very natural. Very board spectrum. Very approved.

    Erm...Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as natural and as edible and as ubiquitous as they are, they have their own warnings and countless users' complaints.

    Even Glycerin/Glycerol whatever one believes, thinks, heard, seen 'safe' there is always warnings and complaints.

    There is always somebody allergic to something. Likewise, there is always someone (politically correct crazy) sensitive about every single bloody dayum thang.

    Sodium metal per se is lethal. Chlorine gas is deadly. Together they become Sodium Chloride, table salt, very safe to be touched and eaten. BUT....but it can be very bad if used concentrated. Glycerin is like that too. So does this mean EWG should also put table salt and Glycerin in the danger zone? I won't be surprised if they already did!

    Oh, Glycerin is also used as an anti-freeze! We're gonna die! Table salt can be used as anti-freeze as well! Both of them are commonly used to reduce or totally eliminate crystallisation of sugar (in baking) and lower down freezing point. Hence, anti-freeze is born! We're certainly gonna die!
    Hi , I don't boder natural . In shampoo and conditioner I like to use DMDM . Please let me know , can I use MPS along with DMDM for broad coverage ? 
  • @Cst4Ms4Tmps4, I have been looking at DMDM Hydratoin for a while.. do you know whether it has any advantages compared to Germall Plus? Germall failed me recently, which probably was my fault, as no one asked me to add bug food to my facewash. Is it easy to formulate with? What I mean by that is whether it's easy to incorporate to a formula, whether it changes the viscosity of the final product etc.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 - we used DMDM Hydantoin as the primary preservative for all VO5 shampoo formulas for years. One of my first formulating projects was to remove methylparaben from our formulas because the DMDM worked fine by itself. Super easy to work with, it's essentially like just adding water. Never had a stability problem caused by it.

  • @Aziz
    Now that's the spirit!  B)
    Artificial, synthetic, man made, woman made, inorganic, or others are also part of chemistry. I find that synthetic stuff are way more stable than natural ones, and way easier to work with too compared to natural. Way safer and purer too!

    I assume MPS stands for Methyl Paraben Sodium. I never use advanced chemicals like MPS. However, DMDM Hydantoin, generally, at least to my finite knowledge, is compatible with everything.

    From my experience, DMDM Hydantoin alone has broad coverage and powerful.

    May I interested you with these links?

    https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-the-best-preservative-to-use/

    https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-the-best-ingredient-to-use/


    @ngarayeva001
    Yes, DMDM Hydantoin is exceptionally easy to work with and is extremely effective! I use it at maximum allowed concentration which is 0.6%. Depending on what is in my formula, I sometimes use 0.5% or less. Most of the time 0.6% because I don't trust myself! Hahahaha!

    I accidentally made tests by accidentally leaving alone few samples without preservative, all with Xantan Gum (Xanthan Gum and water, nothing else), all had black stuff that I presumed fungi. I do not heat the ingredients, the best chance to seeing things growing.

    I do not know the percentage of the actual formaldehyde-donor in Germall Plus. DMDM Hydantoin is usually 50% to 55% as supplied.

    I wager chemical structure counts. The type of formaldehyde-donor of Germall Plus is different to DMDM Hydantoin, just stating the obvious. So, probably that one (Diazolidinyl Urea) is weaker than DMDM Hydantoin even its usage rate is equal or higher than that of DMDM Hydantoin.

    Another reason could be due to the concentration of Diazolidinyl Urea as supplied is already low. And because the presence of Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate has a serious limitation upon how much Diazolidinyl Urea can be used.

    My Godly preservative is only DMDM Hydantoin. Its advantages are:

    - Inexpensive.
    - Does not affect colour, viscosity, scent, etc.
    - Very very friendly to most, if not every, known cosmetics substances. I never come across people whining about incompatibility, other than one's own personal private ultra sensitive incompatibly. :p 
    - Insanely cost-effective.
    - Significantly fewer scares and restrictions compared to Germall Plus (due to Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate).
    - Above all, guaranteed preservation and lasts for a long long time.
    - Omnipotent. Omniscience. Omnipresent.
    - I read somewhere that says DMDM Hydantoin is not affected by high temperatures (Within 100°C). Very convenient for me as my early formulations (when I was an absolute noob) needed heat. I am a lazy fcuk, my way is to dump all in and nuke with microwave. The finished products were fine, no funny growth.

    Disclaimer: What is said may merely be my own thinking, experience, opinion, feeling.

    There are people saying DMDM Hydantoin is a lousy biocide and biostatic agent against fungi and yeast. I don't know what the heck they have in their product/s! They could have heavy amount of oats, milk, home brewed tea/coffee/infusion, flowery stuff in there only they know what. I personally saw few people actually put in petals of their favourite flowers. Simultaneously not have enough of that particular preservative. No amount of the best preservative in this galaxy will save them from pretty coloured toxins appearing.

    In addition to that, I make usable samples of only 10g or 20g every time at any given time, and even so I never finish them up in days. I have an unconscious habit of scratching and digging my face if I am nervous. I should be dead or have massive skin infection a long time ago should DMDM Hydantoin fail as biocide and biostatic agent against all sorts of microorganisms. I made some for my friends, they would be blind or would have had skin infection as well.

    There, free advertisement for all DMDM Hydantoin companies. They should sponsor/pay me! LMAO!
  • Thank you very much @Perry. I have two favorites (Germall and Germaben II) and curious to explore. For some reason DMDM has this weird disclaimer for California customers on it’s cancerogenity (makingcosmetics). Same on lotioncrafter. There is no such a disclaimer for Germall. Usually these suppliers are not spreading chemophobic messages because they sell ‘synthetics’. I consider myself a ‘traditional’ formulator with a strong preference for synthetic materials but seeing that message stopped me from buying it. I decided to do some research before purchasing it and never had time (it’s very time consuming, just try to google it, you will have to go through enormous amounts of chemophobia until you get to a reliable source).
  • @Cst4Ms4Tmps4, thank you. Sounds like germaben ii. It’s a nice blend of parabens and a formaldehyde releaser. Great for transparent products but probably will fail if you add petals :) I guess I am then being paid by dow corning then. Can’t have enough of silicones. So, DMDM is my next purchase then.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 - it's strange because both of those materials contain Diazolidinyl Urea which is also a formaldehyde donor, same as DMDM Hydantoin. 

  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited November 18
    @Perry, that’s why I got confused. I don’t understand why one ingredient has that warning and another doesn’t. I guessed that maybe DMDM is more potent and releases more formaldehyde. I am quite immune to chemophobia and usually it has an opposite effect on me. When I see fear mongering I think ‘must be a good ingredient, need to look into it’. In this case I hesitated because wanted to do some reading and it’s not typical for a supplier to say this: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/DMDM-Hydantoin_p_653.html
    please scroll down the page for the warning.

    https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Paraben-DU_p_242.html

    No warning here. It’s germaben II, which has diazolidinyl urea
  • I am a hobbyist and running my products through proper PET is not feasible so I mitigate this through using EDTA and reliable ‘synthetic’ preservatives, so the more options I have the better. There’s also phenonip but I really dislike phenoxy.
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 19
    @ngarayeva001
    Oh, I learn new word today! CHEMOPHOBIA! Hahaha!

    I forgot to mention another advantage of DMDM Hydantoin, all formaldehyde-donor in general, is it can also permeate and preserve the headspace of a container. It is a preservative of in and out, whacking baddies left and right, checking top and bottom. Rather indiscriminate and thorough species. I do not think other categories of preservatives can do this feat.

    I dislike Phenoxyethanol too. My reason is it has a nice but discomforting scent. The irony, but of course is only me. I don't know about it's efficacy, although I bought 1L of it. I used only few mL and ditch the entire bottle! I just don't like the scent. The scent is very strong to the point a tiny amount of it can leave its trace. Probably just me or the Phenoxyethanol I had was not refined enough. But hey, its natrel!  :D

    Wait a second....Sounds like Germaben II? No, no, no, no, no.
    DMDM Hydantoin is just by its own. Not a mixture. Maybe mixed with water only as its active is only 50% to 55% (generally speaking because there are companies make different concentrations of it).

    Germaben II (Propylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Methylparaben (and) Propylparaben)

    Germall Plus (Propylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate)

    To me, parabens are useless. Just to me. From my understanding, parabens are more suited for oily stuff. My product is totally water-base. Maybe not totally water-based, if surfactants are considered oily stuff due to the hydrophobic tail.

    Propylene Glycol, I think, acts as a humectant to keep formaldehyde-donor liquid and not cake up like in most cosmetics products. Without it you might see powdery thing when it dries. I see it with my DMDM Hydantoin. Pretty awesome! So you see, DMDM Hydantoin works for me terribly well. No extra substance added so that I can have absolute control, fit for a control freak like my good self.

    You are probably paid by many companies as I realised that you use and know countless of branded products. LOL! I can understand if your reason to using them is out of convenience. As you may already know that I have oil, humidity, heat, and tack issue (in my very first post that you engaged), therefore I need to be a purist and perfectionist as much as possible. After 2 years of hardcore DIY elixir of River Styx I eventually was enlightened by Greek Gods that single chemical is the best for me, no more convenience-in-a-bottle.
  • Germaben II is not made for oil based products. It can only deal with emulsions that have less than 25% oils. I use different preservatives for different products: germaben goes to all toners, serums, gels, and low oil phase lotions (it’s very watersoluble actually); germall goes to all surfactants because it has no impact on viscosity; phenonip goes to water in oil and water in silicone (not like I can create a stable w/o but working hard on it), the reason being they are hard to preserve (especially the ones with pigments) and due to oil being external phase adding preservative after emulsification isn’t effective, phenonip tolerates some heating. And I also have a special class of products: experiments that I won’t keep longer than a week, anhydrous products, body scrubs that I will use up within 2 months (anything that doesn’t need much preservation), for these I use euxyl pe9010, because it’s cheap and easy to find in the UK. Phenoxy isn’t very watersoluble, I don’t like the smell, it visibly failed on mold for me once.
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 20
    @ngarayeva001
    Weird. I am not getting notification and I cannot tag people, sometimes.
    I needed to come back here to give more hedge and disclaimer. LOL

    In all seriousness, hedges and disclaimers are italicised.

    Yes I know that, in general, no preservative is made for oil. I did not truly mean parabens are specifically for oil.

    I also know that oil doesn't rot, not ever, it merely goes rancid. Preservation is nearly always about the aqueous portion.

    I phrased it lousily in my previous comment. I will rephrase. Perhaps I didn't know any better. Ugh! :s

    Parabens may be and generally excellent in water.
    The appropriate word may be 'migrate' to oil phase and thus making them useless. There is an order of which particular paraben is prone to migrating to oil portion. Problem is I only read, I can't test it. This probably gives me the false idea of "solubility" in oil.

    Methylparaben seems to be the most water soluble. Ethylparaben seems to be less water soluble than Methyparaben. The rest (Propylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Butylparaben, Benzylparaben) each gets less and less water soluble and more and more oil soluble.

    I do have parabens though! They are in a mix with Phenoxyethanol. I do not use it not due to the smell of Phenoxyethanol (I mentioned I had 1L of this but that is purely Phenoxyethanol. A different story). The main reason as to why I don't use the mix nor parabens because I read that parabens are inactivated by nonionic surfactants. Not just any nonionic surfactants, mentioned extremely clearly is Polysorbates, strong binding. I coincidentally have Polysorbate-80 and Polysorbate-20. Also related to the lipophilic part of Polysorbates and/or parabens are 'trapped' in micelles.

    I may not be incorrect because some sites and books mentioned about solubility in water. And the fact that parabens can be trapped in micelles. They may mean differently to what I actually understand by the word "solubility", may be in a different context.

    Phenoxyethanol is also inactivated by nonionic. Basically nonionic is the major nuisance. To remedy that maybe is to add more and more of those preservatives. Rather than adding more and more preservative until it has valid-and-strong-enough preservation effect, I might as well use preservative/s that are existentially stubborn in the presence of most substances and most hostile conditions so that I can keep their concentration very low and no new (potentially harmful) product is created from binding with other stuff (Polysorbate in my case) in the mix.

    So...in summary....personally....my so-called "best" preservative is DMDM Hydantoin. It has no known inactivator. I could be wrong, again.

    Hahahaah! About your horrid experience with Phenoxyethanol, we could do a digital high-five! To hell natrel!

    Whoa, you really are bought by companies!  :D All branded stuff you use.
  • What about parabens?
  • I read that parabens are inactivated by highly ethoxylated compounds which include Polysorbates. On the other hand there’s plenty of commercial products with ethoxylated ingredients preserved with parabens, so I guess it’s as always, hard to tell without PET. DMDM sounds as an interesting preservative and it will be my next purchase. The blend of several parabens and phenoxyethanol you referred to is probably phenonip. I use it in foundations because it tolerates some heating unlike most preservatives I have.
  • Opinions on Methylchloroisothiazolinone in rinse off products?
  • Opinions on Methylchloroisothiazolinone in rinse off products?
    -- Caused severe atopic dermatitis in both my dogs. Implicated in countless consumer complaints against the company, Hartz. Horrendous.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    teyodora said:
    Opinions on Methylchloroisothiazolinone in rinse off products?
    It's omnipresent in many household chemicals such as dish-washing liquids, floor cleaners, room sprays, or paint. Like many chemicals with such widespread use, there's a fair amount of people developing allergic reactions to it. Also, I don't like it being an organochlorine compound (not nice to mother nature) with mediocre biodegradation (there are far worse compounds). At least MCI has great water solubility and therefore advantage over several other synthetic chemicals used to suit our modern needs.

  • OMG! Tough one!

    I say DMDM Hydantoin. But of course EWG says it is deadly. My only preservative is DMDM Hydantoin. I am too frightened to even try other eco, green, safe, organic, natural ones. I am waiting for my good self and others who use my DMDM Hydantoin-laden moisturiser die painfully!  >:)

    pH between 4 and 5...This one is easy. You probably can use a mixture of Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Gluconate (or Glucono delta Lactone or Gluconic Acid). Add in Salicylic Acid if you feel adventurous.

    Very natural. Very board spectrum. Very approved.

    Erm...Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as natural and as edible and as ubiquitous as they are, they have their own warnings and countless users' complaints.

    Even Glycerin/Glycerol whatever one believes, thinks, heard, seen 'safe' there is always warnings and complaints.

    There is always somebody allergic to something. Likewise, there is always someone (politically correct crazy) sensitive about every single bloody dayum thang.

    Sodium metal per se is lethal. Chlorine gas is deadly. Together they become Sodium Chloride, table salt, very safe to be touched and eaten. BUT....but it can be very bad if used concentrated. Glycerin is like that too. So does this mean EWG should also put table salt and Glycerin in the danger zone? I won't be surprised if they already did!

    Oh, Glycerin is also used as an anti-freeze! We're gonna die! Table salt can be used as anti-freeze as well! Both of them are commonly used to reduce or totally eliminate crystallisation of sugar (in baking) and lower down freezing point. Hence, anti-freeze is born! We're certainly gonna die!
    Thanks dear. 
    At what percentage should we use each of these preservatives and total preservative? 
    In our lotion and cream with cetearyl glucoside (a nonionic surfactant) as main emulsifier the pH is 5-6. Would this be broad for it too? 
    We have purchased 25kg caprylhydroxamic acid because of its low usage rate and high pH range thinking it is broad spectrum because Inolex company stated it in Propanediol as broad spectrum but it was weak for bacteria. So any advice for an antibacterial to use with it would be appreciated. 
    We also try to use one preservative system with high pH range to be able to use it in all our products in pH range 4-7
  • @Abdullah

    You are welcome dear.

    I did not fully understand your question. Are you referring to DMDM Hydantoin?

    Short answer is...I DONT KNOW! I honestly do not know because it appears that you kind of insist on eco friendly, green, organic, natural, following EWG standards. I have zero trust in eco preservative. EWG is mighty rubbish. At the same time I understand that you have demand to comply, I assume you are doing a business.

    Long answer is....Gosh I am going to tell a story!

    About Propanediol....when I started making my own moisturiser I was stupidly sold by claims. I believed Propanediol was 'THE BEST' non-sticky humectact, superior to Glycerol, natural preservative, so on and so forth just because DuPont and Tate & Lyle says is true, they also showed me expensively printed brochure of theirs. Of course, only to find out that it is just a claim. However, it works as a preservative only if it is used at high concentration, so high that it may not be practical nor skin-friendly in your product. Same reason why most glycols, most polyols, most sugars do not really need preservative because they are self-preserved if undiluted.

    High amount of Propanediol is needed due to what is called "water activity". @Pharma explained long and broad on this in one of my long-winded comments. LOL! The link is here. I do not truly understand how it works other than it works by hydrogen bonding, but I know that it must be used at an impractical amount to be useful. I think it needs to be saturated enough in order to hydrogen bond with each free water molecule to decrease water activity. The more the merrier.

    Minimum Inhibitory Concentration (MIC) is real!

    Abdullah said:

    We also try to use one preservative system with high pH range to be able to use it in all our products in pH range 4-7

    I am confused about this part. High pH range? pH between 4 and 7 is not high! But I can understand it is high if comparing pH 4-7 with pH 1-3.

    I am not sure if shampoo works well at pH 4. Personally, it didn't work well for me. Due to my curiosity and ignorance, I made a sample of shampoo/wash of pH 2, 3, 4, 5. The lower pH it goes the worse the wash becomes, foam starts vanishing, detergency is slowly culled....just some weird slippery slimy something. I thought I was sleeping

    According to what I read, 'low' pH tends to turn surfactants back to their acid (or fatty acid) form rendering them useless as surfactants/emulsifiers. I am very sure it is explained by @Pharma (You really seriously need to stalk on what he shares on this whole site. He is insanely technical and detailed, and willing to share extra data even if I/we never ask for. Pretty silly if we didn't abuse his knowledge! LMAO! ).

    I checked for Caprylhydroxamic Acid. Looks like it is a chelator like most organic acids are, including EDTA. From what I understood, those things work by binding ions so that yucky stuff won't grow. This is often insufficient which is the reason why dedicated preservative is still needed, unfortunately. You can still grow microbes with deionised water or the most immaculate and the holiest water in all multiverses as long there is carbon and nitrogen (e.g., glucose) as energy source and for cell proliferation.

    Similar to those substances (glycol, polyol, sugar, etc) mentioned earlier, if chelator works then it must exist in the system at high enough amount to work well as preservative, and this high amount is also impractical. pH would be very low and I am more than sure that you already know that low pH can be part of preservation. I can be wrong about this because there are always acids which are not acid even if the name is acid, just as Cetyl Alcohol is far from being the volatile type of alcohol which the entire world is most familiar with.

    Sales people and advertisement always say 'low usage' and hopefully make people go WOW ECONOMY! THE CHEAPEST AND THE BEST! I BUY NOW!

    My humble 'advice' is use formaldehyde-donor preservatives for all things if you/your customers are not organic natural snowflakes. My personal choice is DMDM Hydantoin because this one seems to be as pure as it is without other things mixed in other than water. DMDM Hydantoin is much cheaper than other forms of formaldehyde-donors perhaps they are a mixture or branded such as Germall Plus and Germaben II.

    DMDM Hydantoin, in my experience, is a very very broad spectrum microbiocidal/microbiostatic agent. It is compatible with most substances. Cationic, anionic, nonionic, whatever pH (but with weak acid and base) and any temperatures (but not extremes; not beyond boiling water temperature and not let it boil for too long).

    Just make sure that your product has no high organic load. I don't understand why there are still people putting petals, milk, oat in their products and wonder why colourful fuzzy things grow. I doubt they are serious in staying safe and healthy. To say whatever they are doing is dangerous is an understatement. To preserve high organic load they will need good ole Formalin (true raw form of Formaldehyde. Freddy Kruger of cosmetics).

    Formaldehyde-donors are usually used at maximum 0.5% or 0.6%. You can always mix in other types of preservatives (No. Not Propanediol. Not "organic/natural" ones like Grape Seed Extract, essential oils). The funny thing is if you mix a little of all preservatives, you can use far less of each preservative, thus it is possible that the finished product causes far less irritation or allergic reaction to snowflakes who possess snowflake skin. Sadly, I do not think anybody can tell you exactly how much 'total preservative' if it is in a mixture. Use enough of everything, you will get loads, more than enough preservation. "Enough" is subjective, but generally this is a number game if you want to mix preservatives.

    With that said and no matter what I or we suggest and share, at the end of the day, you are playing with people's life (your products are being or will be used by others whether you work for/under somebody or you are your own boss) you might want to seriously go for PET or Preservative Efficacy Test like @ngarayeva001 ; mentioned.

    I will say humorously, from what I understood, @ngarayeva001
     and I are considered hobbyists so we can f*ck our own body and we are the ones responsible for our own stupidity, we can only sue ourselves! Hahahah!
  • The most difficult thing in doing this as a hobby is that we have to deal with repackagers. The ingredient I can get wasn’t stored the same way it was for a manufacturer and that 25kg drum of an emulsifier was decanted thousand times to smaller bottles. Open and close, let air in, let dust in, let bacteria in. So DIY ingredients are compromised from day 1. I see commercial products preserved with PE9010 and they do last. There’s no way PE9010 will keep my product safe for 2 years. I had it failed visibly twice (how many times it failed and I didn’t notice?). Same with other even serious preservatives like germall. Don’t want to discourage anyone but even formaldehyde releasers aren’t a guarantee. Add EDTA, add glycols, add the maximum amount of preservative (and potentially even combine several blends), don’t add bug food and have reasonable expectations about shelf like. When I gift what I make I say ‘use within 3 months’. It’s quite upsetting for me because I am a ‘synthetic’ formulator and my formulas would last for much longer if they were made under proper conditions but I have to be real. So @Cst4Ms4Tmps4, maybe don’t rely on DMDM alone.
  • @ngarayeva001
    I do agree with you. I buy all my things from people who sell things in small quantities. But I have no problem relying only DMDM Hydantoin alone. As mentioned, I have reasonable amount of Urea and other stuff that act as 'co-preservatives' like co-emulsifier enhancing the main preservative.

    DMDM Hydantoin alone, it works. I make things for myself so I am using them often and I monitor them daily as they are actually sitting right beside my laptop! :D

    Even if I do not see what is growing, I have fail-safe built-in to know in the unlikely event that preservation fails.

    In addition to that, I am a minimalist, this makes preservation even less of an issue!

    Unfortunately, formaldehyde-releaser and Parabens seem to be the "best" preservatives. The world has been using either of them exclusively and proven safe time and again, so why suddenly the blend and worries of preservatives exist is beyond me. Of course I already know the answer to it. Thanks to scaremongers.

    I, for one, am not bothered by "blends". They make no sense to me financially and logically.

    Understandably not all preservatives are perfect, however in a blend the imperfection is multiplied because only part of the blend works/compatible with certain ingredients while the other part is inactivated by certain ingredients. Depending on the blend, it may fail entirely. Money wasted.

    I am not rich enough to pay for things only to be inactivated and I am very sure I have things that inactivate some preservatives. Some blends are with 'acids', one of them is Glucono delta Lactone+Sodium Benzoate (Geogard Ultra by Lonza). As you can see, the blend works well only at low pH. Not possible for me. Yes, I am speaking for myself and myself only. I need to keep my medium about pH 6.2 as I have Urea.

    I do not want more acid than I need due to incompatibility issue again, or end up "too much" salt in my formulation destabilising the system (thickener, thickening). The concentration used as preservative may be too little to me but too much to some thickeners,  I am more than sure you are aware of this issue. And due to the complexity of a formulation, the effect could be amplified or nullified.

    Blends are for the sake of convenience and for people who want to arrive destination without worrying much. Problem is they rely too much on blend that they do not know how to troubleshoot and do not know what is going on. Then they buy new blend, only to find out it fails. Buy new one, buy until they get it right, rinse and repeat. Viscous cycle. It is playing with money blindly.

    Even if I can manually make my own blend of preservatives, my reason remains the same. Pointless to add things that I know that won't work or not needed.

    I hope I made sense.

    I am a 'synthetic' person as well. I have no issue like you might be experiencing.

    It’s quite upsetting for me because I am a ‘synthetic’ formulator and my formulas would last for much longer if they were made under proper conditions but I have to be real.

    What are you comparing to? Last for much longer than....what?

    Generally speaking, synthetic is it is way more stable and way purer than organic/right from a tree. Much easier to formulate too. This applies to perfumery. I like to think synthetic is inherently clean, inexpensive, makes life easy, cost-effective.
    So, given the same constants, organic one spoils quicker than synthetic one.

    Note: The constants here is a product made under the same improper conditions. And use the same raw ingredients that are open and close, let air in, let dust in, let bacteria in at the resellers or repackagers.

    Depending on the nature of synthetic and organic, I have acid, base, polysorbate, glycol, polyol, silicone, organic, inorganic, etc, etc. All are still fine long past their best before use date or expiry date. Some have been sitting there for 7 years and still fresh and strong! Citric Acid, Glyceryol, etc may be organic but they are at their very high concentration so they are self-preserving.

    Polysorbate and Silicone don't need additive/preservative as they are inherently long life and can be kept indefinitely. I think Glycerol, Sorbitol, and Propylene Glycol can also be kept indefinitely. It is said that they all will eventually degrade to their fundamental forms, they are treating my friends and I very well so far. No complaint about skin reaction, bad smell, bad taste.
  • The main problem is that you don’t even know if it failed or not because they fail on bacteria much earlier than on mold but you can’t see it. You don’t always see colonies of mold when product is actually severely contaminated.
Sign In or Register to comment.