Please Critique Sensitive Skin Ingredients

AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
in Formulating
Hello formulators, here are the ingredients for a private label soap formula (I do not have % unfortunately). Is it fair to market the formula as a sensitive skin/OK for personal hygiene type of soap? I really appreciate your thoughts.

Purified Water, Potassium Oleate (from Organic Sunflower Oil), Potassium Cocoate (from Organic Coconut Oil), Organic Vegetable Glycerin, Citrus Grandis (Grapefruit) Peel Oil, Potassium Citrate, Citric Acid.

Comments

  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    I am not an expert in soaps, but citrus essential oils and "sensitive" don't go together.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Due to the higher pH of a saponified product, I would avoid them in sensitive products or personal hygiene.

    What is the pH of the sample?
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    I do hope that you are not thinking of using citric acid to lower the pH of such a product, because you will be sorely disappointed.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    Okay, just found our pH is 7. Too high, right? 
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    Sensitive skin is actually really hare to predict. By definition it’s an exaggerated reaction to certain chemicals, however which chemicals may vary. The reaction typically manifests as an irritant contact dermatitis.

    In addition there is the trouble of what does your consumer understand as being for sensitive skin? a lot of consumers think allergic and sensitive skin products are formulated the same way - which is not correct.

    Do product testing to find out if the sensitive skin claim is suitable. To find a population of people with sensitive skin you can use a questionnaire such as the one presented in here https://www.medicaljournals.se/acta/content_files/download.php?doi=10.2340/00015555-1870 or lactic acid sting testing. (10% lactic acid smeared on the altar grove of one side and water on the other side. People with sensitive skin tend to have a much faster and stronger reaction to the lactic acid application).

    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    Sibech  I guess I just want to make sure that the formulation won't be too harsh for personal hygiene and does not include ingredients that are on the radar for being potential allergens for most people (albeit I understand almost all besides water could be for some % of the population). As I mentioned, I'm looking for a private label formula, so I'll have little flexibility there, unfortunately, but the answers of folks here definitely help to guide the selection process.
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    @AVisotsky you mentorens it yourself here, you are looking out for potential allergens, which are not the same as sensitive skin.

    @Microformulation has a point in the high pH stripping all oil from the skin leaving it slightly more vulnerable to irritants and allergens.

    @ngarayeva001 also has a point in essential oils as allergens.

    As much as it is unnatural you would likely be better of with a syndet bar with a lower pH and a perfume formulated without known skin sensitizers.
    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    all good points, I'll consider another formula. Many thanks to everybody who responded
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    My previous post display why I rarely post from my phone, damn autocorrect.
    You mention**
    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @Sibech my next question was going to be the INCI name for mentorens???
    Happens with all of us all the time, surely most could relate what it meant. 
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    I'm not very familiar with formulating cleansers, but from what I've heard  Potassium Oleate and Potassium Cocoate are somewhat harsh surfactants due to the smaller hydrophilic head group and chain length. Any truth to this?
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    To be honest, I had to google "mentorens" and unless you are Danish, it doesn't make much sense 
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    @Chemist77 & @AVisotsky It would translate to "The mentor's". The more you know I suppose?
    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • jeremienjeremien Member
    cosmetic industry is using a lot the terminology "sensitive skin", but i guess that "reactive skin" would be more correct.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @AVisotsky about ph 7 it is good and for hair evry product have ph between 4,5 and 7 it is fine , for surfactants used in shampoo they are for sure from vegetebale oils so they are better then sulfate surfactants if we take the health side.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    Thanks so much, guys, for your "mentorens" opinion :) 
    What about this formula? I believe they use a super mild surfactant? 
    • Water, Decyl Glucoside (corn germ oil / plant starch)
    • Lauryl Methylglucamide (coconut oil / plant starch)
    • Glycerin (vegetable derived)
    • Behentrimonium Chloride (canola seed oil)
    • Dihydroxypropyl PEG-5 Linoleammonium Chloride (vegetable derived)
    • PEG-150 Distearate (plant derived)
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    What data are you using to qualify Decyl Glucoside as a "super mild surfactant?"





    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    Decyl glucoside  >:)
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    Also, I see some greenwashing and misapplied sources;
    • While the oils you list as sources are used, they are really in the early stages of the synthesis as feedstock and the tie-in is tenuous if you are looking to be transparent.
    • As discussed Decyl Glucoside is not a mild surfactant. "I believe" is not the way to go. "My credible and vetted research shows..." is a better avenue to explore.
    • You have two (2) PEG's (implying their strong plant-based source." However, they are not "minimally processed" as they use ethoxylation and would not be allowed under any natural standard.
    I would go back to the drawing board and look at amphoteric surfactants. I would also ask where I wanted to be positioned in the market. You are implying "natural" but then using arguably more effective "synthetic" ingredients. This approach if positioning you for greenwashing while simultaneously allowing you to use more mainstream ingredients. It is an area to consider clearing up your message. "Natural" is not always best and in this case, I would feel that surfactant selection as it relates to a "No Tears" Formula may over-ride the need to be rigidly "natural."
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    Guys, @Microformulation ; and @Belassi ; you are amazingly helpful, thank you so much!!!! I want to clarify (I explained at the top): I'm picking from available private label options. Unfortunately, I don't know much about each ingredient myself and the terms that I use to describe the formula come straight from the companies that have developed it. And I'm very grateful for you shining the light on the issues with the formulations. I'm still in the process of looking for a good private label very mild wash formula but as you can see so far I have been a victim of my inexperience and their marketing :) Thanks so much for your critique. 
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    How about this one? Besides limonene looks pretty neutral? 
    pH is 5-5.5.
    Aqua, coco-glucoside, sodium coco-sulfate, glyceryl oleate, glycerin, chamomile+calendula+aloe+Centaurea extracts, anthemis nobilis oil, limonene, benzyl alcohol, sodium benzoate, potassium sorbate, citric acid, sodium chloride.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @AVisotsky sodium coco-SULFATE. Effectives yes, "mild" not so sure. Sulfates are great detergents but they are not very mild. I haven't worked with this one, but don't think it is an exeption. As microformulation pointed out have a look at amphoteric surfactants (Cocamidopropyl betaine). Coco-Glucoside together with Cocamidopropyl Betaine is used a lot in baby products and face products.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    ngarayeva001 !
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Actually, @ngarayeva001 you are making a novice mistake in lumping the Sodium Coco-Sulfate in with the sulfates;
    1. Sulfate, in this case, refers to the presence of the SO4- group in the molecule. This is an extremely common group. This is the Scientific Definition under the IUPAC naming system. It is not a group of materials.
    2. When we refer to "sulfates" in Cosmetics, pragmatically these are SLS, SLES, ALS, and ALES for the most part. It becomes a "marketing" designation.
    3. "Sulfates" (SLS, SLES, ALS, and ALES) are not the "harsh" surfactants that they are said to be. In a balanced surfactant system, the irritation is minimal. True, SLS is used in Dermatology for patch testing, but honestly, most surfactants would serve this purpose.
    If any compound gave me pause it might be the Coco-Glucoside, but again, with a properly designed surfactant system this is minimized.

    However, if I were going for a tear-free product, ONCE AGAIN, I would look at the Amphoteric surfactants and sample Formulations.



    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    Thank you )
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    As far as items for a "sensitive skin", you will have a difficult time scoring this factor regarding ingredients, It is quite variable. At best I would look at each raw material and see if any glaring issues arise.

    If "natural" (ugh) is mentioned as a factor, the second material is better.

    As far as a Personal Cleanser, I would be careful with the genital regions and the perineum. These are arguably a different product than a full body cleanser. It would likely use different surfactants. These are less effective in a full cleanser n my experience, but great for the personal cleansers. Look at some of the Ajinomoto products.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @Microformulation, thank you for your comment. I am not supporting any anti-sulfates chemophobia, but, it is my personal experience, that sulfates are not very gentle with eyes.  May I ask why coco-glucoside gave you pause? It is used in baby products and many face products that are marketed as "for sensistive skin" in a combination with Amphoteric surfactants. I understand that  personal experience is not a good measurement of efficacy of active ingredients, but I guess it is possible to assess whether a face wash is gentle or not (irritates eyes)?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    The general feeling is that all the Alkypolyglucosides have some sort of irritation potential. It is less with many, but in some cases, I have lines avoiding the APG's entirely now.

    Ocular irritation should never be "postulated." If you are going to make this claim, it should be tested with HET-CAM at a minimum.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    Got it. Thank you!
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member

    Great discussion. 

    Please let me know if I'm using up too much of your goodwill! I certainly got plenty of great advice from you, guys, and do not want to abuse the forum.  If it's okay, please check out this formula with Decyl Glucoside provided by one of the vendors:

    Distilled Water, Organic Oils of Olive & Coconut & Sunflower, Decyl Glucoside, Xanthan Gum, Aloe Vera, Citric Acid

    re: Microformulation I see your point about two different products. The main focus in genitals :) if folks decide to use it elsewhere, it shouldn't hurt.

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Again, Decyl Glucoside. Read ^^

    Still an issue.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    edited September 2018
    Distilled Water, Organic Oils of Olive & Coconut & Sunflower, Decyl Glucoside, Xanthan Gum, Aloe Vera, Citric Acid
    - amateur night. Sounds like something from Etsy.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @AVisotsky, the formula you brough up above is, let me put it this way, not very typical. I have not seen decyl glucoside as the primary surfactant (maybe in some non-rinse make up remover?). It is normally added at a lower concentration to boost the foam (like 3%). It tends to decrease viscosity of the final product, etc. If you want a mild product follow the advice of Microformulation. Get a product with an amphoteric surfactant https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Coco-Betaine_p_273.html as a primary surfactant. This one is used in a toothpaste, baby products, I saw it as a primary surfactant in a high end "sulfate-free" shampoo. 
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @Belassi, every time I see xantham as the only thickener I think of DIY youtube videos :)
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    Shoot! I don't know how I missed decyl glucoside. This is the product;  https://www.mooseberry.com/Organic-Baby-Wash-Light-Lavender-p/msc203.htm
    I actually copy your suggested shpiel word by word when requesting formulas, in fact this is what I send to the private label folks: "I'm looking for a private label formula for a sensitive body wash (can repurpose baby wash products), I'd like the pH to be in the range between 4.5-5.5 without sulfates and with amphoteric surfactants such (Coco-Glucoside together with Cocamidopropyl Betaine). 
    Do you have anything like this?" 
     
    The obvious issue is that they have sales people on the other side and me (marketing person) on my end. I did hire a formulator for my first product, just wanted to see if a wash fits my product line and try private label instead, couldn't imagine that it would be so complicated to find something. Went through at least 20 formulas already! 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Coco-Glucoside is actually non-ionic, a distinction from amphoteric. This is where the Chemistry comes in.


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    edited November 2018
    @Microformulation what do you think about this combo:

    SODIUM LAUROYL METHYL ISETHIONATE +SODIUM COCOYL ISETHIONATE+SODIUM METHYL OLEYL TAURATE+COCO-CAPRYLATE/ CAPRATE

  • AVisotskyAVisotsky Member
    my contract manufacturer happens to have it in stock and suggested this. It doesn't seem to have any ingredients that we previously discussed
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