cannabis in shampoo and conditioner

I have noticed some CBD and or hemp being put in shampoo/ conditioners.

What is the concentration of CBD being put in shampoo in order for it to be "effective" and be just a minimal label claim?  the only label claim I have seen has been 10 mg of CBD.  

Comments

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 2018
    It is to a great respect marketing. I know that the topical products go for 25-50mg's per DOSE to try and claim efficacy based on the credible studies. In that case, it is 10 mg of CBD per what volume? Also, remember that the credible studies (especially the Israeli study that is often cited) showed that to be effective CBD must have a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio of CHD: THC. This is called the entourage effect. This only occurs in CBD harvested in a recreational/medical approved state. Hemp has 3.5% of the equivalent CBD in cannabis-based plant material. THC cannot be transported across State lines and in the US the DEA requires that it must have less than 0.3% total CBD.

    (Clarification, I did a great deal of cGMP consulting last quarter 2017 in the California market and one company even flew me out for a 2-day course by the ST\tate Cannabis Board).

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpandedbranch.xhtml?tocCode=BPC&division=10.&title=&part=&chapter=&article


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @Microformulation I know of a shampoo that advertises 10 mg of CBD in 16 fl oz.
    So you really need the entourage effect to have a truly effective product.  So how effective would the 10mg of just CBD be in this shampoo?  Most of the marketing is 0% THC. Would 20 mg in 16 fl. oz be better or overkill?  
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 2018
    1. The Topical dosage is 25-50mg per dose. This is established in several British studies and is the level that topicals strive for in WA, OR, CO and CA.

    2. First described in 1998 by Israeli scientists Shimon Ben-Shabat and Raphael Mechoulam, the basic idea of the entourage effect is that cannabinoids within the cannabis plant work together, or possess synergy, and affect the body in a mechanism similar to the body’s own endocannabinoid system.

    This theory serves as the foundation for a relatively established principle within the pharmacology community, that in certain cases whole plant extractions serve as better therapeutic agents than individual cannabinoid extractions.

    The entourage effect theory has been expanded in recent times by Wagner and Ulrich-Merzenich, who define the four basic mechanisms of whole plant extract synergy as follows:
    • Ability to affect multiple targets within the body.
    • Ability to improve the absorption of active ingredients.
    • Ability to overcome bacterial defense mechanisms.
    • Ability to minimize adverse side effects.
    3.  "Most of the marketing is 0% THC." I think we can weigh-in on the disconnect between marketing and Science.

    4.  20 mg would be just for label copy. Marketing the presence at a subtherapeutic level. I guess this would add a whole other aspect to "greenwashing!" :) :D

    As a disclaimer, I do not partake in THC containing products since my state does not allow it Recreationally or even widespread for Medical uses. When CA announced its proposed new law, many companies were forced to step up their documentation standards. I was recommended to one company who in turn passed my name on to several others. We discussed the cGMP and recordkeeping requirements for making a product "X" where I was consulting vaguely. My feeling here is that if it is going to gain any ground it must be researched as an active with better studies (more data points) and if made should be made as an active where it is consistent batch to batch and tested as such. These over-reaching Cosmetic claims are seen as marketing and by many as a barrier to a more credible product.



    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    10 mg of CBD in 16 fl oz is 0.02mg/ml and 20 mg of CBD in 16 fl oz is 0.04mg/ml. This are extremely low doses even if you disregard the need for THC and the terpenes.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @Microformulation
    So would 300 mg of CBD in 16 fl oz make the product functional with a decent dose?  I am try to make a "functional hair shampoo product."  What can be considered a decent dose?  

    Thanks for the information ! I plan to read the information concerning the studies by the Israeli scientists.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    If it isn't the whole plant extract with the CBD, THC, and terpenes it is a waste of time, period regardless of how you try and market it. If it is the whole plant extract with CBD, THC and the terpenes, it can't be shipped across state lines. You are proposing a market-driven product with no functionality.

    Taking that another step, part of a well designed and credible product is a realistic Cosmetic claim. What Cosmetic claim are you proposing from the CBD oil? If it is a drug claim, it becomes an OTC at the minimum. The Federal Government (even if you could ship it across State lines) is not entertaining NDA's on the cannabis-based products. Now, you could say that it is going to be only sold in the State the raw material is authorized, but you would still have a difficult time skirting regulatory oversight.

    https://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceRegulation/LawsRegulations/ucm074201.htm

    I would posit that any Cosmetic claims you make regarding the CBD oil could be more affordably delivered with Hemp seed oil as well. 

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I assume I am trying to find out if in a shampoo would 100-300mg of CBD/Hemp oil be effective enough to being relief. I am in a state where rec/medicinal is legal.
     
    I understand what you are saying in a technical sense but clients don't really care as long as they can get a label claim and some decent effectiveness for soothing the scalp, some pain relief and  overall relaxing.

  • ZinkZink Member
    @mark: "1. The Topical dosage is 25-50mg per dose. This is established in several British studies and is the level that topicals strive for in WA, OR, CO and CA. "

    Links? 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I will send links when I get into the office as I am in the lab.

    Also, if I wasn't under NDA's, I could share about 40 Formulas based up 25-50mg.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    If a dose were 50mg, then considering the plant has a typical content of 15% THC, considering THC only this would imply about 330mg or 1/3 grams of bud per use. Now how many "doses" are in a bottle. Let's say it is a 400mL bottle and the dose is 20mL. Which is 20 doses per bottle, or 6.7g of bud, per bottle. The Web tells me the retail price is $20/gram in CA, so the bottle of shampoo would have $135 of bud in it, which implies a retail price of around $800 per bottle.
    Hmmmm.
    Pass me a brownie, someone.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Have a Bud Light instead
  • ZinkZink Member
    @Mark - thanks! Appreciate it. I have a friend who was thinking about it for sunscreen use but I couldn't find any convincing data.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I still haven't found time to get into the office, but it is on my to-do list. So much lab work.

    There is still so much up in the air with the regulations. The FDA has yet to make any definitive answers. For example, one person told me that it is the DEA that regulates the THC and that the FDA will still evaluate any drug claims for monograph compliance. Another I asked had no idea.

    Honestly (and I hope I am wrong), I think we will find very little valid use for CBD typically unless it is processed for some sort of absorption. I have one client using an ultrasonic system to form a nanoemulsion. I do however think though that there is so much pressure to give it credibility.

    So, I guess people need to stop overreaching regarding its proven uses. If you just want to get it traction so it can be used recreationally, just say that.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Here are some links I can access without being on my server. There is a discussion of THC/CBD in Dermatology. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16ca1zcgWpThKlLa_SQ16FqOxh_gjX1l6?usp=sharing

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Honestly (and I hope I am wrong), I think we will find very little valid use for CBD typically unless it is processed for some sort of absorption.
    After my own tests, which involved using a high-potency (17% THC) indica in a topical cream, I decided it was useless. No reported effect.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Belassi Hope you ate the leftovers.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • DuncanDuncan Member, Professional Chemist
    If he did he would have eaten the entire contents of Aisle 3 at the local 7-11
    UK based, Over 20 years in Toiletries, After a 5 year sabbatical doing cleaning products, back in the land of Personal Care
  • Goodness all this good information.  
    @Microformulation... Thank you so much for the CBD info!!!!  Reading it now!!

    totally understand about the NDA ... but could you help with the math portion?  Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.

    how do you figure the amount of CBD oil to put in a batch to have ...50 mg in an ounce.  
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    First, unless you can get Cannabis based CBD (with the accompanying THC), it is just marketing. Use Hemp Seed Oil and make it all marketing.

    Next, you need to have an assay of the CBD/THC in the product. Like any plant-based material, it must be standardized.

    Once you have the CBD content. it is simple mat. Let's say 1 gram of an extract contains 10mg of the active product. Then it is based on a simple ratio.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I keep hammering on the proper source. (Cannabis based CBD with THC in 1 10-20:1 CBD:THC ratio). It really is important. I am a bit defensive since this emerging Industry keeps presenting it as a "medicine" that cures all. If they want credibility we need to disregard all the marketing based Cosmetic bull hockey and engage in real studies.

    Otherwise just buy a wagon and peddle your product from town to town with an accompanying assortment of salves, balms, tinctures and healthy elixirs.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • The problem is penetration. The body's endocannabinoid system, specifically the CD2 receptors, are throughout your entire body, where the CD1 receptors which are the ones that bind THC, are located in the brain only (based on current research).

    For THC to reach the brain via a topical you would need a solvent that penetrates the skin. DMSO is used transdermal patches as the organic solvent (liquid organic sulfur) to break through to the bloodstream. Using DMSO in our sports cream, we have found trace amounts of THC (20 CBD:1  THC or even 40:1) help more with pain management than CBD on it's own. Research has shown that while CBD is effective on it's own, THC triggers the entire endocannbinoid system and produces a synergistic effect. Without DMSO every patient in our study reported the effects weren't the same. Tried on several patient types from injuries to disabilities. 

    I speak from experience as an extraction laboratory (CBD and THC), edible company, and topicals (former grower and we're now expanding out this space hence the recent join).

    As for dosing, Microformulation is correct. We work with a state certified lab and obtain a Certificate of Analysis on all of our extractions. This determines purity. We use crystalline that we formulate in-house at a starting purity of 99.9% for CBD/CBDA/THC/THCA/CBN respectively.  Then, math for the different formulations.

    As for credibility as a medicine, it has been documented extensively outside of the USA, and the USA (they have a patent on CBD as a cancer cure). Israel are the leaders when it comes to CBD research. Diabetes, cancer, anti-inflammatory, Alzheimer's, dementia, and pain suppression are just some of the most common research panels. SDSU did a study on obesity and weight loss. Not flaming anyone, just helping spread some knowledge.

    What I'm curious about is use of preservatives, natural, and using DMSO and side effects. 

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @BProvisions Great summary! I was happy to see someone weigh-in who is applying the proper level of technical documentation and knowledge in the Industry.

    As far as the studies go, I agree with one caveat. I have honestly read almost every study that existed up to 2 months ago and the most credible research was in the UK, Israel, and Canada. In the US most research money is either from Federal grants (not an option here) or from Industry R&D which is expected to pay off in the long run. As of yet, very few US Studies meet the standard which would be required by the FDA  to substantiate its use as a prescription or therapeutic agent. I came over from Pharmaceutical manufacturing and I simply say that it has not been evaluated to the standard of a traditional drug trail.

    My frustration with the lack of drug trials is most likely a result of the endless unsubstantiated memes which purport it to treat everything, that "Big Pharma" is holding it back out of greed and lack any credible citations. I believe that it will treat many conditions, but far less than the scope that these "memes" propose. Many of these memes are posted by people who I infer are not really suffering from a credible condition, but rather are more likely fans of the recreational use. I just wish they would cut to the chase and just admit that they are more motivated by recreational use and leave the medicinal aspects to "Scientists" who will use the proper methodology. As a Libertarian, I really couldn't care less about anyone's recreational usage.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Microformulation - I feel the same about the meme problem and wild claims. A cancer cure? Color me skeptical.

    Honestly, I see nearly zero cosmetic use for cannabis in hair products beyond a marketing story.

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Perry I am also heavily skeptical regarding any Cosmetic claims as well. Honestly, I would see it as a much more expensive alternative to Hemp Seed oil, likely bringing the same benefits. Any "upsell" in this area will likely be marketing driven and not Scientifically supported evidence.
     

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
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