The low down on soaping...the how's and why's (in lotion).

GraillotionGraillotion Member
edited May 10 in Formulating
If there is one thing I am passionate about.... I hate lotions that soap.....(create a white residue on skin, and must be worked in with effort.  So a couple questions: 
1) What ingredients are most likely to cause it?  (I suspect the emulsifier is the main culprit?)  If it is the emulsifier....which component...as most emulsifiers have more than one ingredient. (I know about Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate).

2) I know that dimethicone is the go to solution.... But what I really want to know...from a chemistry point of view....how does dimethicone reduce this phenomena?  
Part of the reason I ask....Question 2....is for ulterior motives.  I want to attempt to reduce the soaping with natural alternatives to dimethicone.  If I do not know how dimethicone works to reduce soaping in lotion....I will have no idea (other than testing) if these products will have a similar effect.

I am testing the following two products....

Floramac 10 from Floratech:  INCI Name:  Ethyl Macadamiate
and
INCI: Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables

Comments

  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited May 10
    I am not so naïve as to think....all slippery ingredients will have the same effect on soaping.  That is why I seek the mechanical means in which dimethicone reduces soaping. :)  …. Ultimately I would like to duplicate those mechanics...in a natural format....if it can be done.


  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    edited May 11
    I am not a chemist nor anyone who should have particular knowledge of this. But I am also interested in reducing soaping without using dimethicone, which seems like a common problem that no one really has solved.

    My hunch is that dimethicone works due to its low surface tension, which breaks up foam. See here. It seems to be mostly lamellar-based emulsifiers that have the soaping issue. The soaping can be reduced somewhat by increasing slip as much as possible to reduce shear stress (which dimethicone can also do), but my hunch is that to eliminate soaping completely would also destabilise the lamellar structure, which eliminates the skin barrier regeneration and moisturisation properties of the lamellar system.

    For example, adding less than 1% potassium cetyl phosphate (in addition to the soaping emulsifier) completely eliminated soaping in one experiment, but it also switched the cream from being moisturising to being drying, despite potassium cetyl phosphate being supposedly a gentle emulsifier.

    (BTW I'm sure my hunches are complete rubbish and nothing I've said is scientifically correct.. as I said, I'm not a chemist!)

    Let us know if you have any success reducing the soaping!
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    good post

    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Thank you for the comments so far.... I read some old posts....and the conclusion was... dimethicone was best....one formulator that tried all the natural routes said... "Dimethicone was 3X better than all other options..."  Other options were Plantasens...and Isoamyl's.

    I was hoping....that maybe there was some recent research on new products...that would help me circumvent the dimethicone route.

    If I elect to use dimethicone….what is the minimum amount needed to reduce soaping?  (Soaping is not major....I am just super adverse to it).  Please do not give the rate in cps...hehehe...more like a percentage.... .5%?)
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    It'll depend on your formula but likely 0.5-1% will be enough
  • caligirlcaligirl Member
    I've removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect.  I've also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.  
  • caligirl said:
    I've removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect.  I've also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.  
    I have decided to go the route of no dimethicone….  After making about 5 batches this week...I have determined it is very sensitive to which emulsifier I use.  I have also added... Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and that helped..... a lot.  

    The 165 emulsifier....and not using stearic to thicken...seems to have done the trick.

    I already had daikon seed extract in the formula....but only at 1%.  
  • caligirlcaligirl Member
    Nice!  Glyceryl Stearate in your emulsifier gives excellent smooth glide (no drag) that using Stearic Acid (alone) can produce.

  • Guys, reducing soaping without dimethicone is extremely hard to achieve if you use fatty acids and fatty alcohols. They would soap, it's their nature. What you can do is to make a cream-gel type of product where you would achieve viscosity and stabilise the product by using polymeric emulsifiers (it better to be a blend of two or polymeric emulsifier plus some sort of carbomer). It would be a light product, not a heavy cream for dry skin. 
    Sepiplus 400 gives "silicony" feel without adding silicones. Not my favourite though, I would rather use a combo of Sepimax Zen/Sepinov EMT 10 or Aristoflex AVC/Sodium Carbomer (subject to % of oils).
    All sold by lotioncrafter (if you are a hobbyist and need 50gr).
  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    When using stearates, oleates, lactylates, saponified acids, esters, just add cetyl alcohol @ 1- 2% to curb skin soaping. Dimethicone certainly helps too. Simethicone even better.
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited May 21
    When using stearates, oleates, lactylates, saponified acids, esters, just add cetyl alcohol @ 1- 2% to curb skin soaping. Dimethicone certainly helps too. Simethicone even better.
    I tried making my formula with both cetyl esters, and cetyl alcohol, and hated the feel that C Alcohol gave (oily), and loved the feel that C esters gave.  I did seem to tame the beast with the Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables.  I am trying to make the formula ( emulsifier: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate) without stearic acid....and even at 4% C Esters....just a tad thin.  If I sub 1% C Alcohol for C Ester....Will it make it a little thicker...and reduce soaping even more.....(I am essentially at zero now.)
    I think what I am asking is.... C Alcohol is more effective at thickening than C Esters....right?  (I would prefer to be at a total of 3%.....so would 2% C Ester and 1% C alcohol have at least as much thickening....as 4% C esters?)
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Right, cetyl alcohol is more effective in this regard and I'd also start with replacing 4% cetyl esters with 2 % C esters and 1% C alcohol. But regarding oil gelling and, in my experience or rather my personal preference, skin feel and that's why I use 1% cetyl alcohol for 0.5% cetyl palmitate or vice versa... Try it out! If you have glyceryl stearate on your shelf, you could give that also a trial.
  • Pharma said:
    Right, cetyl alcohol is more effective in this regard and I'd also start with replacing 4% cetyl esters with 2 % C esters and 1% C alcohol. But regarding oil gelling and, in my experience or rather my personal preference, skin feel and that's why I use 1% cetyl alcohol for 0.5% cetyl palmitate or vice versa... Try it out! If you have glyceryl stearate on your shelf, you could give that also a trial.
    So you would say....try 2% C Alcohol and 1% C Ester?  In other words using C Alcohol at a 2 to 1 rate with C Esters?
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    No! You like C ester, so go with more of that (2% C ester, 1% C alcohol) ;) .
    For my creams, depending on overall feel and requirements, I frequently substitute 0.5% cetyl stearate with 1% cetyl alcohol or 1% cetyl alcohol with 0.5% cetyl stearate. But I don't do it to improve the lamellar phase but changing melting point of a lamellar phase I already have (because it contains some of both ingredients). That's a luxury I often have but you don't. Gosh, I shouldn't have mentioned it... I can be confusing, sorry!
    Watch the pendulum, watch the pendulum... you fall asleep & do what I say: Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. :smiley:
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited May 21
    Pharma said:

    Watch the pendulum, watch the pendulum... you fall asleep & do what I say: Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. :smiley:
    Love that you can have a sense of humor when working with the ignorant.  :):wink: 
    Well...today I will play with my C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, in the mosquito formula...hehehe... So tomorrow I will work on the premium lotion, and try that combo.
    I guess I am in no rush....since I can not buy a PET lotion bottle...to save me life. :) 
Sign In or Register to comment.