saponification, thicken formula

JDJD Member
edited November 2014 in Formulating
So I just made a base for a liquid cleanser using KOH. I want to thicken this up a little BUT ONLY using cocamidopropyl-betaine and NaCl.

Any recommendations?

coconut oil 2.6%
shea butter 10.36%
water 84.56%
KOH 2.49%
Warm Regards, JD

Comments

  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    The salt will definitely break the soap emulsion that you have created by neutralizing fatty acids with the alkali, though you can try CAPB alone (which again has some salt content) and see how it works out for you. 
  • JDJD Member
    I have a product for home use that has the listed ingredients that I mentioned. They were able to get some thickening. Any starting % you can throw out there?

    p.s would glycerin thicken it?

    Thank you!
    Warm Regards, JD
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Maybe that was the part of Betaine they mentioned, why don't you just pump in a little more soap and this would take the viscosity up. Not really sure if glycerin can help in gaining the viscosity, never ever heard about it. In fact glycols reduce the viscosity in some systems.
  • without anionic surfactant how can u thicken by betain and NaCl?

     

  • JDJD Member
    I dont know how they did it but they did? unless they used PG instead of glycerin for the neem extract but its suppose to be 100% natural organic and last time i checked, PG is not so natural/organic. Would PG even thicken over glycerin?
    Warm Regards, JD
  • JDJD Member
    They could have evaporated water to thicken formula? if that's the case, then the product will loose 8-16 oz of water making costs a lil more expensive..
    Warm Regards, JD
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    The coconut oil is being saponified, as is the shea butter, so the soap will be a thickener, Check the sap values.

    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • By the way, I fed the given formula into soapcalc and it corresponded exactly to the requirement percentages for a potassium soap. So, it's basically a diluted liquid soap. You're asking how to thicken a liquid soap. Well, frankly, that is a matter that you'll find discussed on a soapmaker's forum.
    You might try heating the soap solution to 70C and dissolving say 2% of MEA with slow agitation and then continue agitation while cooling to room temp. I have found that the addition of a low % of MEA to CP soap (solid bar soap made with NaOH) increases hardness slightly and makes the soap last longer in the shower. As I recall, sodium lactate in a low % makes soap harder so you might try that. There is no point in adding glycerine as there will already be plenty of that. Apart from those, you'd need to research a thickener suitable for high pH (typically pH = 10) surfactant solutions.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Further to my last: this looks like quite a nice liquid facial soap. The shea will give a silky effect. If you can find it, kpnangan butter would be even better. And replace 2% of the shea with castor (more conditioning, more bubbles). I think if you add salt you may find that it begins to sequester.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @bobzcemist so thickening process doesnt due to betain and NaCL.
  • JDJD Member
    Thanks as usual Bob, you the man!

    Great comment Belassi, you hit all the points I was thinking about(mind reader).
    Warm Regards, JD
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    @nasrins, betain and NaCl thicken just fine in most surfactant/synthetic detergent solutions. But...soaps are different, and also react badly to salt. (look up "salting out" in soap manufacturing)

    @Kfox, can you add Stearic or Oleic Acid? After neutralization, the Potassium Stearate and/or Potassium Oleate should thicken your soap up easily.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • @bobzchemist I wish I could explain it in best way.

    as I read in some papers when we have anionic surfactants in our formula here betain acts like a salt( cause it produces both anion and cation) and increasing in  viscosity is in high amount.but when we have cationic, amphoteric or nonionic surfactant betain doesnt any much affect in viscosity. why?  anionic radius is far more than cationic one so alteration in micelle structures is more,  viscosity is function of these structures so it is altered too.

  • JDJD Member
    @bobzchemist, I could add stearic but i am trying to keep it a gel as much as possible ,but oleic might be the way to go. thx
    Warm Regards, JD
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