formulating an anti-aging serum..Help! I tried everything!

Hello!

I think i tried a million combinations and i still don't seem to get to a stable emulsion.
I want to make a face serum/cream that will be put in an airless bottle. 
The formula is like this:

Phase A:
Mimosa extract: 0,05%
milk thistle extract: 0,05%
dandelion extract: 0,05%
snow algae extract: 0,5%
kaempferia galanga extract: 0,05%
Olive leaf extract: 0,3%
ginseng extract: 0,3%
Rosemary acid: 0,3%
Resveratol:0,1%
tremella fuciformis extract: 0,5%
rhodiola extract: 0,05%
(all extracts are powders)
Distilled water: 67.75%
Glycerine 2%
.......................

Phase B
Squalane :3%
Grapeseed oil: 5%
Apricot oil: 2%
almond oil: 2%
Rosehip oil:2%
bakuchiol: 0,5%

Phase C:
Vitamin E: 0.1% 
Ferulic acid 0.1% 
Cosgard: 0,8%
Oils for perfume (patchouli, ylang ylang, bergamot) : 0,3%
I have tried the following emulsifiers with this base formula:
1.Emulsan 3% combined with cetearyl alcohol: 2% (the final result was ok-ish until i put the 0,5% citric acid which made the cream a bit more fluid)
method: I heat both phases and i put the oil over water, at cool down i add phase C
2. Cetearyl alcohol: 2%+cetearyl glucoside:1%+xanthan gum: 0,2% (the result was more fluid than the first one but in 1 hour it changed a bit color, it got darker)
method: I heat both phases and i put the oil over water, after 3 min of stearing i put the xanthan gum over and at cool down i add phase C
3.Cetyl alcohol:3%+sucrose stearate 4% (the cream resulted was dense and nice until i put 1% citric acid to obtain a ph of 5. It just became very watery and it has small white gatherings of material in it)
method: I heat both phases and i put the water over oil, at cool down i add phase C

I really don't understand what i am doing wrong. I don't know if the emulsifiers i'm putting in are at good% or why am i not getting a stable emulsion.
Please let me know if you have any ideea and you can help me out

Thank you!

Comments

  • It seems to me that you're not using sufficient emulsifier. It seems likely that there's a very high amount of electrolytes present.
    Also, I doubt that even 0.1% of resveratrol powder is going to be soluble in this combination.
    Method 2 sounds horrible with 1% xanthan gum, gummy gummy gumdrops.
    I would use method 1 but increase the % of both emuslfiers.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • crillzcrillz Member
    Yeah agree with belassi, I'm not sure if the citric acid is going to like the high electrolytes too much, hence making it runny. If I'm reading it right you are putting your xanthan in after the emulsion. Try mixing the xanthan and the glycerin together and then adding it to your water phase. A bit more emulsifier and pump up the revs on the mixer. Also presume you are putting your emulsifier in with your oil phase. 
  • Belassi said:
    It seems to me that you're not using sufficient emulsifier. It seems likely that there's a very high amount of electrolytes present.
    Also, I doubt that even 0.1% of resveratrol powder is going to be soluble in this combination.
    Method 2 sounds horrible with 1% xanthan gum, gummy gummy gumdrops.
    I would use method 1 but increase the % of both emuslfiers.
    Hi and thank you for your answer!
    I need to say that i am a newbie and please be so kind to tell me which of the substances are electrolytes.
    For method 2, xanthan gum is not 1% but 0,2%
    " Cetearyl alcohol: 2%+   cetearyl glucoside:1%    +   xanthan gum: 0,2% "
    I will try your suggestion about method 1

    Thank you so much!
  • crillz said:
    Yeah agree with belassi, I'm not sure if the citric acid is going to like the high electrolytes too much, hence making it runny. If I'm reading it right you are putting your xanthan in after the emulsion. Try mixing the xanthan and the glycerin together and then adding it to your water phase. A bit more emulsifier and pump up the revs on the mixer. Also presume you are putting your emulsifier in with your oil phase. 
    Hi!

    Thank you for answering. I will try to put the xathan gum with glycerin and heat it up with the extracts
    So for method 2 maybe put cetearyl alcohol 3% and cetearyl glucoside 2%  and xanthan gum 0,3% ?
    1. Method 1: both emulsifiers in oil phase
    2. Method 2: cetearyl alcohol in oil and cetearyl glucoside in water, xanthan gum at final
    3. Method 3: both emulsifiers in oil

    Thank you!
  • Try Arlacel 165. It works with a high amount of electrolytes. It worked pretty much everywhere.
  • Try Arlacel 165. It works with a high amount of electrolytes. It worked pretty much everywhere.
    Hi!

    Unfortunately i need to make the cream PEG free so i can't use Arlacel 165

    Thank you!
  • Hello
    try to use Sensocream as emulsifier.
    I did some emulsions with him but viscosity that I get is better for serum.
  • I searched for Sensocream but it's only available in a few countries. I sent a message to the producer to maybe get a sample.
    As for my recipe, i am not sure which one of my ingredients have electrolytes so i can remove them or put a smaller percentage.
    Also i read somewhere that i should use at least 2 emulsifiers and 2 stabilizers.
    So i am thinking of maybe using this : Emulsan(methyl glucose sesquistearate) 3% combined with glyceril stearate: 2% +2% cetyl alcohol+0,3% xanthan gum and at the end adjust PH with Lactic acid instead of citric acid
    What do you think? It is enough emulsifier and stabilizer? Will this cream not be too thick to put an atomizer?

    Thank you so much for all the help!
  • And for the preservatives i'm going to use: Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin, Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate 

  • Use cetearyl rather than cetyl. The former acts as a co-emulsifier, cetyl doesn't. Your last message, the preservatives are overkill. Just use the first two. 
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • So Emulsan(methyl glucose sesquistearate) 3% combined with glyceril stearate: 2% +2% cetearyl alcohol+0,3% xanthan gum ?
    For the 4 preservatives i saw them all 4 everytime i looked in natural creams. Apparently Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin do not offer enough protection, or that's what it's stated. For Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate i just wanted to put 0,1% and for the first 2 i will put 1%

    Thank you!
  • @Belassi @crillz
    Would you be so kind to tell me which of the extracts are electrolytes? I haven't found any information about that. 
    Thank you so much!
  • HI MARINAARTM,
    I USE A LOT OF BOTANICAL INGREDIENTS AND HAD SIMILAR ISSUES. I FOUND SOME INFO SEARCHING "HERBS HIGH IN ELECTROLYTES". THIS IS A LIST THAT I FOUND. ALSO, https://thrivemarket.com/blog/natural-sources-of-electrolytes
    • nettles (Urtica dioica)
    • oatstraw (Avena sativa)
    • red clover (Trifolium pratense)
    • alfalfa (Medicago sativa)
    • rose hips (Rosa spp.)

    I USE THIS EMULSIFYING BLEND THAT IS ALL NATURAL WITH A HIGH ELECTROLYTE TOLERANCE.
    https://www.makingcosmetics.com/CreamMaker%C2%AE-MIX_p_115.html
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited November 10
    @marinaartm
    Practically every herbal extract contains more or less electrolytes.
    Are you aware that Emulsan (methyl glucose sesquistearate) is a W/O emulsifier instead of O/W? W/O emulsions need a whole different approach than O/W's, for stability these actually need electrolytes, so I don't think the electrolytes are the problem here.
    If you would combine the Emsulsan with PEG-20 methyl glycose sesquistearate (Glucamate™ SSE-20) you could make O/W emulsions with it.
    I'd recommend a 'sturdy' emulsifier blend like glyceryl stearate + PEG-100 stearate, which tolerates electrolytes, is relatively cheap and is perfect for newbies.

    crillz said:
    Yeah agree with belassi, I'm not sure if the citric acid is going to like the high electrolytes too much, hence making it runny. (...)

    What do you mean with this? Citric acid ís an electrolyte.

    Edit: Here is a link with some info on the difference between O/W and W/O emulsions.
    And about the GMS + PEG-100 stearate blend: it's an O/W emulsifier blend and I use it myself a lot, it's one of my favourites.
  • In addition on my reply above:
    I also totally agree with @Belassi on the resveratrol.
    I would recommend to experiment with ferulic acid and resveratrol later on, when you are more experienced making stable emulsions, they're difficult to solubilize and very expensive.
  • Do all those extracts and oils have any useful and scientifically proven purpose?
    Most likely they don't
    So get rid of them (or reduce them to claim ingredient levels), simplify your formula to avoid potentially destiabilizing ingredients.
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited November 10
    One more tip for understanding emulsions: this is a link to a former discussion here on CC, it's a gem! (written by @Bill_Toge
    https://www.chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/3005/emulsions-setting-the-record-straight
  • If you have to have high electrolyte content and want a serum or creamy serum you might consider a combination of Seppic's SepiMax Zen (Polyacrylate Crosspolymer-6) maybe at at 0.5% with Sepinov EMT-10 (Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer) at 1%.  SepiMax Zen is very electrolyte tolerant, EMT-10 less so.  You may need to reduce the oil phase closer to 10%.  These are easy to work work with and can be added to the heated oil phase.  You could even do them cold process but you'll have to add the Zen to water and walk away for 8 hours.  Unless you have a magnetic stirrer and even then you need patience to avoid fish eyes (air bubbles in the gel).
    Speaking of oil, why grapeseed?  It's got a fairly quick shelf life.  Personally, I'd use esters and maybe some squalane. 
    Gunther is right. Simplify.  You've got so many pricey actives.  Why, what is the goal of it?  Choose one or two and up the usage rate.   
  • Totally support the previous comment about Sepimax Zen. A great solution for the systems high in electrolytes. Regarding Sepinov EMT 10, yes it's better than, say, Aristoflex AVC but still not tolerant enough.
    Although some would say it's anecdotal evidence I had a negative experience with grapeseed oil and also prefer esters. 
  • I am not a pro, but I do experiments at home for fun, and I have had a similar problems. It seems that most of the emulsifiers are electrolyte intolerant. I've sent a lot of expensive ingredients at the bin, because of that! Recently I have found a new emulsifier for me called PolyAquol-2W. It is fantastic by the way. It can create emulsion with only 5% oils, or even without any oils - just a water. I made for myself two lotions with 5% esters, and they were fantastic. Also my lotions contained Sodium PCA and Sodium Lactate + Pentilene glycol, and there wasn't separation at all. So you could try it.

  • @ggpetrov - Thank you for the tip on PolyAquol-2W. I'm trying to incorporate magnesium sulfate into an emulsion, and it sounds like this might be exactly what I need. 

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