surfactant thickener help

amitvedakaramitvedakar Member
edited July 19 in Formulating
I want to thick my shampoo/facewash with pH range of 5.5 to 7.

Base SLES(27%) shampoo-  40%,  FW-35%
 CDEA 3% , Betaine 5%  & Polyq. 7- 1%.
Herbal Ext. mixture (shampoo)-2%
Result req. Paste like facewash/Shampoo.

I use 0.5% GHTC.
I am confused with three ingredients.
HEC or Crothix or Ultraz 20 type polymer.

All materials  comes in 20/25 kg packing.
so which is most  suitable?

Does it make any performance issue.
Can anybody Help?
Thank You.

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    With SLES, Betaine, and CDEA you don't need a thickener. Just adjust the viscosity with salt.  Do a salt curve analysis.
  • Perry said:
    With SLES, Betaine, and CDEA you don't need a thickener. Just adjust the viscosity with salt.  Do a salt curve analysis.
    yes sir,
    Thank You.
    One more question: Does salt make skin or hair Dry?
  • Well,
    can adding CDEA separately in surfactant make any difference in thickness?
    We add all surfactant all to gather & mix. 
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Amit what is FW; also when you use the cationic guar an acid neutralisation is required. Have you done it all? 
    Adding all the surfactants won't be advisable as SLES needs to be dispersed/dissolved completely in the batch before you add other surfactants. As Perry mentioned, in such a formula salt can easily be the thickener. 
  • @Chemist77 ; FW-- Facewash.
    It means i have to mix all other materials  (preservatives, GHTC, Herbal Ext. etc  )in SLES first & then should add CDEA,   Betaine, POly Q 7.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    No, GHTC first. Neutralize with citric acid to pH 4 and then SLES. Add the remaining  surfactants and everything else once the surfactant mix is clear. 
  • @Chemist77 ; Thank you very much
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    No, salt does not make hair dry.
  • em88em88 Member
    What's the viscosity you are looking for and what's the viscosity you are getting? What's the pH of you shampoo? 
    NaCl is cheap and easy to be added during manufacturing.  
  • My Shampoo pH  6.
    I tried Nacl and result is OK.
    In shampoo i am going to cut down percentage of my herbal Extract to 1%.
    I think that is problematic.
    well when I make nozzle side down shampoo runing out of the nozzle.
    Nacl made some difference.
     Can Nacl be added upto 1%? 
  • em88em88 Member
    Yes you can add NaCl up to 2% (I don't think that there is any limit for NaCl), but you won't need that much. 1% should be OK.
    Don't forget to make sure NaCl is well dissolved in your shampoo before checking the viscosity. 
  • There is a limit. Your salt curve will go down and you lose all viscosity. You need to do the analysis and find the peak
  • em88em88 Member
    There is a limit. Your salt curve will go down and you lose all viscosity. You need to do the analysis and find the peak
    Yes, but no one stops you to add 3% of salt even if the viscosity is the same as 0.5% NaCl :smiley:
    Jokes aside, yes, you are right regarding the salt curve, but I don't think amitvedakar has the equipment to measure the viscosity. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @em88 - You don't necessarily have to measure the viscosity exactly. You can get a relative measure of the viscosity using a salt curve analysis. It might be a bit harder to see small differences but you could certainly tell the difference between watery liquids, slightly thickened liquids, and really thick liquids.

  • em88em88 Member
    @Perry, you can't make any precise decision just by looking the samples.
    I just remembered a similar situation at the university, It is very simple to have a fairly good precision if you do an experiment based on Hoppler viscometer.
    I'd suggest to amitvedakar to read about the Hoppler viscometer and how to simulate it.  B) 
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Perry said:
    With SLES, Betaine, and CDEA you don't need a thickener. Just adjust the viscosity with salt.  Do a salt curve analysis.
    yes sir,
    Thank You.
    One more question: Does salt make skin or hair Dry?
    By using CAPB and CDEA you'll need so little salt to thicken it, often less than 1%, that you won't notice any difference.

    Is the betaine you have actually CAPB (cocamidoproyl betaine)?
    Is that 5% as supplied, or 5% on an active basis?
    If it's the former, then it's 1.5% active CAPB, that's a bit short. You may increase it to 10% (3% active CAPB) for further mildness and thickening.
  • I made this simple hand soap last weekend:
    INCI %
    Aqua 37.6%
    Disodium EDTA 0.1%
    Glycerin 2.0%
    SLES 40.0%
    Cocamide DEA 3.0%
    CAPB 15.0%
    Germaben II 0.8%
    PEG-7 Glyceryl cocoate 1.5%
    Citric Acid qs

    It is so thick without any salt that my problem was how to unthicken it. And I haven't even added any salt. Combination of SLES and CAPB is thick by itself. CDEA makes it even thicker. So maybe you just need to play with %
  • Well thank you all for taking interest & Suggestions.
    @em88
    em88 said:

    I'd suggest to amitvedakar to read about the Hoppler viscometer and how to simulate it.  B) 
    At present we don't have, try for that.
    Well by adding Nacl i found some difference in thickness.

    It's CAPB SB- Cocoamodopropyl betaine having active 30%


    I increase CAPB  7-8% & try.

    Salt should be added by dissolving or sprinkle directly & mix.
    what is advisable?   

    Thank you All.
Sign In or Register to comment.