My dishwashing liquid separates after a week

giddie15giddie15 Member
edited July 16 in Formulating
I've been trying to make an  dishwashing liquid my problem is it becomes turbid and eventually separates into 2 layers after a week. Could this be a preservative or compatibility issue? as of now i'm using benzalkonium chloride 50% as a biocide and antibacterial agent This is my formula:

9.09% SLES
0.9% LABS
0.9% CDEA
0.9% Coco Betaine
0.3% Benzalkonium Chloride
18.2%  Salt
0.5% Fragrance
0.5% Colorant
68.71% Purified Water

the Product is  clear and viscous after formulating then it turns turbid in about 5-6 days  and eventually separates into 2 layer.

Comments

  • Chi_nChi_n Member
    18.2% Salt? If so it is way too much
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    thanks for the quick reply @Chi_n i adjusted salt to meet the desired viscosity i wanted adding salt in parts of 10 grams without clouding the solution. if salt is way too much here are there any alternative to solve viscosity issues? thanks!
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    by the way i also experimented using SLS/SLES formula with the same amount of salt and used sodium benzoate as preservative. i didnt have any separating layer issue's but  my product produced a low grease cutting ability. That's why i decided to replace SLS with LABS and switched sodium benzoate with Benzalkonium chloride(for additional claims). i add LABS when SLES is completely dissolved an water i think this is what they consider in situ neutalarization (correct me if im wrong). i havent test for the final pH of the product though. but im expecting it having a pH of 7-8 because of ammount of SLES to LABS currently in my formula.
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    hello @Perry thanks for your inputs. ill try these. i tried adding salt in little amounts until i got the desired viscosity without clouding the solution. the solution turns out to be pretty thick with the viscosity i want but everything just happens to separate into layer by a week or so. So this is most likely a compatibility issue rather than microbial issue because of the excess salt?

  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    SLES, LABSA  anionic, BKC cationic. End of. 
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    thanks for your input @Chemist77
  • smoksmok Member
    can you show us the pic
  • giddie15giddie15 Member

  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    here are the pictures @smok. right side (product 1-3 days from production) left side (product after 5th-6th day). first picture product after 7th day
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    any good preservative i can add i believe i have a pH arround 8-9. im using sodium benzoate but upon searching sodium benzoate is effective at pH range below 5.5 anything above pH 7.00 has 0% activity
  • smoksmok Member
    edited July 17
    i don't know if you understand my bad english google

    the first thing
    I think it's a phisic problem and not chemic...the condicionement of your product
      heat or cold
    the second thing to check the prfum always is the problem of separation setrain company melange anything to diliuer the perfume
    in my formula i  put labsa double of sles then you have to increase dea
    never add the sles before regulations of ph
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    i made a wrong calculation my bad. salt is only 2.2%. here is the corrected formula 

    9.09% SLES
    0.9% LABS
    0.9% CDEA
    0.9% Coco Betaine
    0.3% Benzalkonium Chloride
    2.2%  Salt
    0.5% Fragrance
    0.5% Colorant
    84.71% Purified Water
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    edited July 17
    i see. my process is fully dissolve SLES in water then add colorant, fragrance then i add LABS then CDEA and CAPB then add salt at 2.2% or until desired viscosity. this is done at Room temperature about 26-28 degrees Celsius
  • smoksmok Member
    no
    add labs then ph regulation with tea or costic then sles.....
  • Chi_nChi_n Member
    Agree, neutralize LABS first then add SLES. You can use phenoxyethanol which is effective in wide range of pH 
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Thanks for your comments. Ill try all neutralizing labsa first before adding sles
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    @Chi_n should i use phenoxyethanol with other preservatives? Based on my understanding phenoxtethanol is only effective against gram negative bacteria and ineffective against yeast and molds. Will lowering the pH with citric acid and using sodium benzaote do the trick?
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Update after adding sodium benzoate pH of product dropped to 3.58. 
  • Chi_nChi_n Member
    Yes, phenoxyethanol should be combined with other preservatives, ethylhexylglycerin or benzisothiazolin, both work in wide pH range. You may need to add a chelant to boost its activity.  
    Remember for soil cleaning/degreasing detergent works best at alkaline pH. So not sure if you want to sacrifice your dishwashing performance to have sodium benzoate in the formula.  
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Thanks for your inputs @Chi_n ill try to formulate at higher pH range and compare performance. 
  • GuntherGunther Member
    giddie15 said:
    i made a wrong calculation my bad. salt is only 2.2%. here is the corrected formula 

    9.09% SLES
    0.9% LABS
    0.9% CDEA
    0.9% Coco Betaine
    0.3% Benzalkonium Chloride
    2.2%  Salt
    0.5% Fragrance
    0.5% Colorant
    84.71% Purified Water
    Make sure that's 9% active SLES, and not SLES as-supplied which only contains 70 or 30% SLES

    What's there to neutralize LABSA?
    Otherwise it would become too acidic

    Don't blindly add salt
    Make a salt curve analysis to determine the optimum amount

  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Thanks for your inputs gunther. My sles is in weight basis and i use sles 70% ill readjust this to get a 9% active
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Any thoughts on using methyl paraben as preservative here?
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Point is that benzalkonium chloride is cationic and SLES/LABSA anionic. Anything you do to adjust the formula isn’t going to work unless you take out the quat.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    giddie15 said:
    Any thoughts on using methyl paraben as preservative here?
    That'd be great.
    You have to options:
    A. Have the surfactants dissolve/emulsify parabens to keep them in solution.
    B. Add paraben Sodium salts as they're readily water soluble.

    By the way, stay away from mild preservatives like Sodium benzoate, dishwashes need sound preservative systems as they may get in contact with (bacteria containing) rotten food debris.
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Hi @Chemist77. Im taking out bkz in the formula. Its much more clear now. Thanks for your inputs.
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Thanks @Gunther
  • giddie15giddie15 Member
    Another question. Does anyone know what chemical is in vego liquid? I know its a bubble enchancer but i could not find any lead what chemical is it. Thanks. 
  • GuntherGunther Member
    giddie15 said:
    Another question. Does anyone know what chemical is in vego liquid? I know its a bubble enchancer but i could not find any lead what chemical is it. Thanks. 
    Consider starting a new thread for that. This one already lost steam (and you're getting off topic)
    Also, try looking for its MSDS or datasheet to see if the ingredients are listed there.
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