How much Polyquaternium-7 in shampoo?

Many formulas mention using 0.5-1%
but is that 1% in an active basis, or 1% as-supplied?

I just realized commercial PQ-7 is only about 9% active matter, so it makes a huge difference.

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    We always used it as supplied. You don't need a lot of polymer to get an effect.  Of course, I never found PQ-7 particularly conditioning in a shampoo formula.
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    We also use it at up to 1% as supplied.
  • svensven Member
    PQ 7 1% as supplied. PQ 10 0.5%
  • baheybahey Member
    what's happened if i raised pq7 to higher ratios like 2-4 % ?
  • baheybahey Member
    Perry said:
    We always used it as supplied. You don't need a lot of polymer to get an effect.  Of course, I never found PQ-7 particularly conditioning in a shampoo formula.
    could you suggest shampoo formula without anything you thinks it's useless ?
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited May 21
    @bahey - In my experience, Dimethicone has a measurable effect.  Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride may work better that PQ7.  Also PQ10 is a good option.

    But just because I don't find PQ7 particularly impressive in the formula I was working with doesn't mean you will have the same experience. It's used by a lot of formulators. Unfortunately, I think a lot of formulators just put ingredients in because they trust what suppliers are saying.

    The most important thing is to experiment and take measurements. Test your formulations (on a blinded basis) and see if you can tell a difference with and without an ingredient. Don't rely on supplier information or even the declarations of formulators on this forum to shape your final opinions. 

    And when you run experiments, come back here and post your results so we can all advance the science.

    Cosmetic science suffers from lots of motivated research, anecdotes and secrecy. There is surprisingly little controlled, unbiased published research. A forum like this can change it but only if people are willing to experiment, learn, and share.
  • AzizAziz Member
    bahey said:
    what's happened if i raised pq7 to higher ratios like 2-4 % ?
    It will form a heavy build up . It will make unpleasant  wet and dry conditions.  
  • baheybahey Member
    Perry said:
    @bahey - In my experience, Dimethicone has a measurable effect.  Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride may work better that PQ7.  Also PQ10 is a good option.

    But just because I don't find PQ7 particularly impressive in the formula I was working with doesn't mean you will have the same experience. It's used by a lot of formulators. Unfortunately, I think a lot of formulators just put ingredients in because they trust what suppliers are saying.

    The most important thing is to experiment and take measurements. Test your formulations (on a blinded basis) and see if you can tell a difference with and without an ingredient. Don't rely on supplier information or even the declarations of formulators on this forum to shape your final opinions. 

    And when you run experiments, come back here and post your results so we can all advance the science.

    Cosmetic science suffers from lots of motivated research, anecdotes and secrecy. There is surprisingly little controlled, unbiased published research. A forum like this can change it but only if people are willing to experiment, learn, and share.
    ✊ Respect 
    well said
  • I agree with Perry that PQ 10 is better than PQ 7 (better combability for wet hair). Also, PQ 10 adds viscosity which is a great bonus if you are formulating with glucosides or say, sarcosinate.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    edited May 22
    bahey said:
    what's happened if i raised pq7 to higher ratios like 2-4 % ?
    Nitesh Rajput advises to use 2-5% (as-supplied)
    https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-polyquaternium/ 

    This study used 1% active PQ-7
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392003000400013

    It looks like anionics hinder PQs deposition

    Liquid Detergents
    2nd edition
    edited by Kuo-Yann Lai


    So I wonder if most eveyone is getting mediocre results, just because they are using too little PQ-7?
    1% of a 10% solution is just 0.1% active PQ7.
  • AzizAziz Member
    @Gunther I made a batch with PQ7 2% , it was unpleasant.  Here is a screen shot of Poucher's text book of perfumes and cosmetics.  He used only .25%PQ7 in his formula.  
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Aziz said:
    @Gunther I made a batch with PQ7 2% , it was unpleasant. 

      
    Thank you. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant by unpleasant?
  • AzizAziz Member
    Gunther said:
    Aziz said:
    @Gunther I made a batch with PQ7 2% , it was unpleasant. 

      
    Thank you. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant by unpleasant?
    Not soft and silky , a heavy and hard feeling wet and dry combing . 
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