help with dishwash formulation

my ingredient for dishwash are:
Water                                80.000 KG
Citric Acid                         0.450 KG
Linear Alkyl Benzene Sulphonic Acid 90% 4.500 KG
Caustic 50 %                     1.875 KG
SLES 28 %                         3.300 KG
Fragrance Lemon (Oil)    0.120 KG
Solution of HPMC -0.600 KG + Hot Water -6.000 KG
Solution of Nacl -1.600 KG + Water -7.000 KG
Yellow Colour 10 %           0.050 KG
Total                                 105.495 KG

and my procedure for making also is in this sequence
Predilute Fragrance (oil) with SLES 28%

My problems are:
1. The end product is not crystal clear
2. How to make it super thick (in same price)
3. any other or best way to emulsify fragrance
or any other improvement .. 
and Sorry for my english
Thanking you 

Comments

  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    Citric acid and caustic soda?
    LABS and SLES?
    HPMC and NaCl?
    No preservative other than high pH?
    No amphoteric hydrotrope?
    You got problems there, my friend.
  • 1 Neutralized LABSA always seems to have a faint yellow tint. So it can't be crystal clear. You can use a SLS + SLES shampoo like formula, if you want it to be clear (and milder on the skin).

    2 To thicken it you
    2.1 can add more LABSA + NaOH
    2.2 more SLES
    2.3 conduct a salt curve analysis to make sure you ain't adding more salt than needed, which makes it thinner.
    2.4 add an alkanolamide

    3.1 Buy a ready made, water soluble fragrance
    3.2 use PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil and/or a polysorbate to solubilize fragrance

    4 add a preservative, as @chemicalmatt just mentioned.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Super thick in same price plus clarity, not a good prospect.
  • Citric acid and caustic soda?
    LABS and SLES?
    HPMC and NaCl?
    No preservative other than high pH?
    No amphoteric hydrotrope?
    You got problems there, my friend.
    @chemicalmatt ;
    1. Citric acid is for " https://www.thespruce.com/citric-acid-safety-cleaning-uses-1707021 " and caustic soda is for making LABSA neutral ( or any suggestion ) .

    2. LABSA is my primary surfactant and I am using SLES for emulsify the fragrance ( is it ok ? or any other suggestion for SLES  ? ).

    3. ( we tried CMC, HEC, MHEC, Carbopol 940 ) HPMC is best compatible with LABSA and nacl for cheap thickener ( also we conduct a salt curve analysis ) , and we know with salt, form decrease. So, alternate for nacl which compatible with HPMC ?

    4. For preservative i am using now Benzalkonium chloride and my product have ph 7  ( BKC is it ok ? or any other suggestion for BKC )

    5. given order of amphoteric hydrotrope will try this also thanks.

    and sorry for my english 

  • @amittal if you Use Benzalkonium Cloride, it may react with Anionics and precipitate..not Compatible I guess
  • @Chirag I tried.and you are right... So i am using nonionic (alphox 200) with bkc . 
  • the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?
  • @Gunther
    with higher viscosity the formulation become cloudy 
  • Amittal said:
    the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?
    @Amittal you can replace it with CDEA or CMEA. 
  • AmittalAmittal Member
    edited February 17
    Tx @Chirag i replaced hpmc with capb the end product is much more transparent but i am getting less foam after adding capb don't know why!
    And is there any way to use Benzalkonium Cloride with sles?? I am currently using sodium benzoate. 
  • @Gunther @Chemist77 @chemicalmatt any help pls

    1st issue i am getting less foam after adding capb don't know why!
    2nd issur is there any way to use Benzalkonium Cloride with sles?? I am currently using sodium benzoate. But i want to use bkc
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    Benzalkonium Chloride is not compatible with SLES or any other anionics. You will need to find a different preservative if you want to use SLES.
  • @ozgirl tx for my 2nd issue can u help me with 1st issue..  Without capb foam is good... But after adding some capb foam decreases.. Pls help me!! 
  • bil7bil7 Member
    First of all you adding labsa amount much higher not safe secure with regular washing hands especially for womens after using this product regular their hands skin will rough instead of 4.5 kg add 3 and increase sles or sls with coco betaine or DEA or better with MEA and add citric after neutralize of labsa sles fat . If u want crystal clear shine add some tartaric acid if u adding 10 percent citric then add 1 percent tartaric acid it will also clear cloudy visibility and ur product glows .
    Second fragrance adding de limonene it will mix 2 parts of tween 20 one part TEA and addition glycerin added same phase if lemon fragnance then added with glycerin mixed TEA.
    Helps you better post later on SOP.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Amittal said:
    the HPMC giving sticky feeling how to remove it ?
    You shouldn't need any HPMC or any thickener other than salt.
    Both sulfonates and SLES properly thicken with salt. CAPB and CDEA/MEA sharply lower the salt amount required for thickening.

    External thickeners like HPMC might leave a sticky residue on dishes.
  • AzizAziz Member
    ozgirl said:
    Benzalkonium Chloride is not compatible with SLES or any other anionics. You will need to find a different preservative if you want to use SLES.
    Is sodium benzoate not enogh as preservative in dish wash liquid ? Is MPS compatable along with Sodium benzoate ?
  • AmittalAmittal Member
    @Aziz i want Benzalkonium Chloride bcz its preservative and also anti-microbial. On other hand sodium benzoate is only preservative
  • AmittalAmittal Member
    @bil7 I'll add labsa to 3kg but like labsa sles will not clean properly den what ingredients should i add to replace labsa for cleaning purpose. And thanks for problem of clear and fragrance. 
  • ChiragChirag Member
    @Amittal along with LABSA, SLES will solve the cleaning problem as SLES also works well on the grease. Increase the amount of SLES in your recipe and then tell us. 
    BkC will not go well with LABSA and SLES as Ozgirl says.
  • QuimicoQuimico Member
    The amounts of active ingredients is very low to obtain your desired results.
    SLES improve the clarity and stability of the formula.
    The minimum active ingredients at least;
    SLES 28%= 0.28 x 15 Ai =4.2
    LABSA 90%= 0.9 X 19 AI =  13.5

    This is a good recipe 
    Water balance TO 100
    Caustic soda 99% 1.3
    LABSA 96%             12
    SLES 70%                7
    DEA                           2
    STPP                       1.5
    SALT                        1.5
    EDTA                        0.2
  • AhmadAhmad Member
    Belassi said:
    940 is useless with anionic surfactants.
    which grade of carbopol is better, ultrez-20/21 is not available in our country.
    we have polygel-940/941/934.
    Does it have any other name (ultrez-21)?
  • QuimicoQuimico Member
    Use EDTA as; 1. Chelating agent 2. Preservative 3. foam booster why you use too much fragrance for Dishwash? Just 0.05% is enough.
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