Cationic emulsion

Dear friends 
what is cationic emulsion? Is it good or bad? 
Thanks in advance 

Comments

  • It’s an emulsion made of cationic ingredients. Its not good or bad. It’s used for hair products a lot due to conditioning properties.
  • Examples of cationic ingredients: BTMS-50, centrimonium chloride and polyquats. Be careful when mixing it with anionic or amphoteric  (an emulsion might break).
  • @ngarayeva001 thanks a lot. I appreciate your help 
    btms-50 is the one. I will stay away from it.
  • @ngarayeva001 So what else would be good for a hair conditioner? What would you suggest? 
  • Couldn't you use a chelating agent?  
  • @Dtdang I am not saying to stay away from it. It’s pretty useful if you are making a hair mask or hair conditioner, all I am saying you need to be careful when adding other ingredients because if you mix it with something anionic or amphoteric where pH is higher than 7 you will destabilize your emulsion. 
  • @Jdawgswife76 chelating agents are used to bind electrolytes in your water, which is crucial if you are working with electrolytes sensitive ingredients. Chelating agents are not conditioners. I gave several examples of conditioning ingredients above.
  • That is true: acid + alkaline -> salt + h2o
  • A cationic emulsion can be made with

    4% Cetrimonium Chloride on an ACTIVE ingredient basis
    2% cetearyl alcohol

    or just use premade BTMS.
  • Isn’t it better to have both BTMS and centrimonium chloride is together?
  • Isn’t it better to have both BTMS and centrimonium chloride is together?
    Yes, but Cetrimonium Chloire (CETAC) often reduces viscosity, unless additional fatty alcohols are added.
    Also, there are regulations that limit CETAC % in some countries.
  • I agree it does decrease viscosity significantly  but it makes the product better. I am still experimenting with it. The texture is nice if you add enough oils, but performance is worse.
  • It’s all how you shape the formula, I have a light conditioner with fatty alcohols, GMS and few emollients which thicken up nicely with the addition of CETAC 30%.
  • thanks @Chemist77 for your great inputs.
  • @Chemist77, I have question to you that when I reduce the percentage of oil phase, do I need to reduce or to increase the percentage of emulsifier (same emulsifier)?

    Thanks in advance.
  • edited November 20
    It is all very subjective, but just don't overkill. 
  • I am trying to make an all-natural conditioning bar. Can you suggest any natural ingredients that may give a similar performance?

  • @J4ckbird - Similar performance to what?

    The reality is that conditioners aren't natural so there is nothing in nature that will give similar performance. If you're not going to use the best available ingredients (synthetic conditioning agents) you can't expect the same performance.

    The best you can try is Coconut oil or Palm oil or something that these non-natural conditioning agents are made from. It won't work as well but it might work well enough.

  • @J4ckbird, I love natural products but maybe 90% natural s the rest maybe non-natural.
    here is simple natural conditioning bar. 
    Bmts-50
    cetyl alcohol 
    babassu oil or coconut oil ( I like Babassu Oil)
    shea butter or cocoa butter 
    natural oils you like 
    apricot oil
    essential oil (you like)




  • If you love chocolate, use cocoa butter and sweet orange essential oil
    it smells great 
  • This idea of cocoa butter + orange essential oil was from
    @ngarayeva001
    i made lotion with cocoa + orange essential oil
    it smells great! I love it
  • Perry said:
    @J4ckbird - Similar performance to what?

    The reality is that conditioners aren't natural so there is nothing in nature that will give similar performance. If you're not going to use the best available ingredients (synthetic conditioning agents) you can't expect the same performance.

    The best you can try is Coconut oil or Palm oil or something that these non-natural conditioning agents are made from. It won't work as well but it might work well enough.

    What are some good conditioning agents you would recommend?  Also i made a body wash with castile soap because my SLSL HAD NOT came in yet and it turned out wonderful only it left the skin feeling really to clean and not moisturized and i used jojoba,  coconut  oil and some other ingredients i would have to pull up my formula sheet but just out of curiosity if i wanted to make fast non emulsive body wash with Castile soap do you have any recommendations? 
  • Castile soap is a soap. It will not be moisturizing, and you can't make non-drying body wash with it. 
  • @J4ckbird, I love natural products but maybe 90% natural s the rest maybe non-natural.
    here is simple natural conditioning bar. 
    Bmts-50
    cetyl alcohol 
    babassu oil or coconut oil ( I like Babassu Oil)
    shea butter or cocoa butter 
    natural oils you like 
    apricot oil
    essential oil (you like)

    Thanks for the feedback. I have seen similar recipes to the one you offered. I'm wondering what I can replace the BMTS-50 (which I think is a thickening/binding agent) and acetyl alcohol with. I'm using things like French clay and seaweed, with the butters and vinegar and playing around with it. So far its not terrible. 

    I've made a soap with chocolate fragrance and mint essential oil for Easter one year. People wanted to eat it, but it was a great soap. I called it hot chocolate!
  • J4ckbird said:
    I am trying to make an all-natural conditioning bar. Can you suggest any natural ingredients that may give a similar performance?

    @J4ckbird The only thing i can think of for that would be maybe something like aloe juice/powder 2 ,  honey, h20, cocnout milk/powder and some oils but for an emulsifer i would know where to to lead to you that "All Natural" you can always use a thickner like xantham gum but make sure you use a preservative and a good one as these ingredients are hard to preserve if used in there food form like the milks,  aloe juices,  etc and there are NO "Natural " reservatives sucb as vit E etc.  This could  be  something you made a small batch of and kept refrigerated and used within 2 weeks. Would deff need to be a personal short shelf life formula.  Conditioner is pretty much lotion with a bit of a surfactant.  If your referring  to "natural" paraban and sulfate free now thats possible. 
  • @J4ckbird If you want it "natural", which is not a defined term, replace BTMS-50 (which is a cationic emulsifier) to beeswax. But it will not be conditioning. You need 15 to 20% to make it solid. But again, don't expect to get a good performance with "natural" ingredients. "Natural" essential oils are much worse than any not "natural" cosmetic ingredients you can think of.
  • @Jdawgswife76, there are plenty of " natural" emulsifiers. But the product described above is a conditioning bar (aka large lip balm). If you add water, honey etc, it will become an emulsion.
  • So i decided to try this tell me what you think please. 

    H20 59.9%
    Glycerin 8%
    Aloe Juice 8%
    Panthenol 1%
    Coconut powder 1%

    Cetyl Alcohol 3%
    BTMS 5%
    Cocnut oil 2%
    Vitam E oil 2%
    Castor Oil 2%
    Avocado Oil 2%

    Dimethicone 5%
    Germall plus 0.05%
    Jupiner E/O
    Lavender E/O
  • @Jdawgswife76
    1) 8% of glycerin is extremely high. The product will be very sticky. Reduce to 3% max, and if you want more humectants, get butylene glycol and 1,3 Propanediol. The last one is reducing tackyness of glycerin.
    2) Aloe.. use it until you discover polymer emulsifiers, once you do, you going to hate it :)
    3) Panthenol is a "claim" ingredient. Doesn't do anything. You can keep 1% or can reduce to 0.1% and save money on the material.
    4) Coconut oil isn't good for face. It is too heavy. Consider substituting it to something else (babassu maybe).
    5) There are two types of Vitamin E: Tocopherol - antioxidant that is used to prevent oils in your lotion from getting rancid. Do not use more than 0.2% or it will act as pro-oxidant! Tocopheryl Acetate - an active ingredient for skin benefits. You can use up to 5% if you wish, but usually it is used around 1%.
    5) Dimethicone looks a bit high to me. Nothing is wrong with it, but try to reduce to 2-3% and see if the product is occlusive enough.
    6) The recommended usage rate of Germall plus is from 0.1 to 0.5%. You have 0.05%, maybe it's a typo?
    7) EOs... I personally avoid them in face products. They all are either phototoxic, or cytotoxic or both. If you want to use it, try not to go over 0.2%
  • Idk how this got into this post i meant to post in hair conditioner post.  So nothing  will be used on my face and meant 0.5 on tje germal plus
  • The dimethicone is recomended at a 1-5 but have heard everywhere funtions better at a 6% for hair even the manufcturer usage  recomendations . 
  • What do you think for a Hair Conditioner? 
  • Yes this is the right post up top is the conditioner post i was going  to try for ALL natural but changed my mind
  • Dtdang said:
    This idea of cocoa butter + orange essential oil was from
    @ngarayeva001
    i made lotion with cocoa + orange essential oil
    it smells great! I love it
    I have a bit of experience with essential oils and yes they are fabulouse for smell and other actives.. ..  They are used in 80% cosmetics for smell. 
  • Sorry, it looks like a lotion to me. Ok, if it's a hair conditioner, you can keep EOs, 5% is a good amount of dimethicone (you can add cyclomethicone next time when you have it), you still should reduce amount of vitamin e. Now the crucial part (and why I thought it's a lotion) - you need a good amount of cetearyl alcohol. I would say 5%. You can keep Cetyl as you have it at 3%, and the most important, don't use more than 0.5% of oils. Grab any commercial product in a store and you will notice that oils are listed somewhere near preservative (means very low % is used). Oils in hair conditioner are for claims only. Be careful when you melt your oilphase, heat it slowly.
  • You can also add 1-1.5% of Cetrimonium Cloride (conditioning ingredient) or Polyquartenium 10 (also conditioning, but I don't have experience with this one, so can't advise on %).
  • PQ-10 0.5%
  • Sorry, it looks like a lotion to me. Ok, if it's a hair conditioner, you can keep EOs, 5% is a good amount of dimethicone (you can add  next time when you have it), you still should reduce amount of vitamin e. Now the crucial part (and why I thought it's a lotion) - you need a good amount of cetearyl alcohol. I would say 5%. You can keep Cetyl as you have it at 3%, and the most important, don't use more than 0.5% of oils. Grab any commercial product in a store and you will notice that oils are listed somewhere near preservative (means very low % is used). Oils in hair conditioner are for claims only. Be careful when you melt your oilphase, heat it slowly.
    Ok so the BTM 50 CETYL and cetearyl for oil phase?  I made it nd i turned out pretty good cojld have been better for the detangling and slip.  I have dry hair thays why i though the oils would be good because they do work  VERY Well when i coat ends of hair before wahing.  But i will deff try that,  what effect will adding the cetearyl have on  final formula? I did reduce the vit E to when i made the last batch.  Thank you and the cyclomethicone is better than dimethicone for hair?  If so why?  I will order some if worth it.  
  • @ngarayeva001 what does aloe have to do with  polymer emilsifiers?  
  • edited December 5
    Polymer emulsifiers and rheology modifiers give that expensive luxurious feel to products. The absolute majority of high-end products (I am taking about chanel/dior/la mer/la prairie - the stuff that is sold in the Bloomingdales and Saks) as well as many good products sold in drugstores have at least one of them. Aloe is high in electrolytes that the most of polymer emulsifiers do not tolerate well.
    I love polymer emulsifiers and only have one face product made with traditional emulsifiers only (I formulated it for my friend and called ‘Hipster Moisturizer’ as a joke). You can find them on lotioncrafter or makingcosmetics. But be careful, once you try them you won’t be able to go back 😂
  • @Jdawgswife76, I also had that perception that oils must be good for hair. But then I figured out that that it’s cationic emulsifiers and cationic conditioners (cetrimonium chloride) that give detangling and slip. You can make hair mask with oils but that type of product should be left on your hair for 30+ minutes, or it won’t work. Take your favorite commercial product and analyze the LOI. Regarding cyclomethicone, I like mixing it with dimethicone. It’s not a must but a nice addition. Your product will work well even without cyclomethicone.
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