Nanotechnology in skincare?

Hello All,

I recently found this product https://sabrina-beauty.com/the-science/ with a pretty generic ingredients list (except for misspelling “tocopheryl acetat”). The manufacturer is making really bold claims about using “nano-size collagen” that “penetrates” through stratum corneum and “rebuilds lost collagen”. I am staying more than sceptical, but very curious about the opinion of the professionals on this forum. What are your thoughts on ingredients like this “nano” collagen and ultra-low molecular weight hyaluronic acid? I understand that skin is a natural barrier and this product won’t restore lost collagen, but is it worth it to pay more for ingredients with lower molecular weight?

Thanks in advance!

Comments

  • our scientist travels to specific regions of the world to find and carefully select nutrient rich, organic ingredients that were grown in a bountiful, fertile environment
    Yes, the local supermarket.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @Belassi, if they said "you can find all of these unique ingredients including apple stem cells on lotioncrafter" how would they justify the price tag? :smiley:
  • @ngarayeva001
    skin is a natural barrier and this product won’t restore lost collagen
    I think this is your answer.

    I'd say hyaluronic acid of any weight is not worth the high price if used in cosmetic products, but this is only my personal opinion.
  • @Doreen regarding hyaluronic acid, it's not exactly the case, because HML forms a gel,which is very useful in formulating serums. However there are 5 or 6 "low molecular weight" powders available (usually the lower weight, the more expensive it is). So I am curious is there any good reason (I am not talking about penetrating the skin marketing claims) to buy "the lowest" weight or not.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Yes, Super Low Molecular Weight HA will penetrate the dermis and provide superior moisturization and it's a component of the skin's Natural Moisturizing Factor.  Higher weight HA forms a film on the surface of the skin to help reduce TEWL.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    As @MarkBroussard pointed out, the lower molecular weight forms will penetrate slightly more. They do cost more and keep in mind that unlike the standard Regular Molecular weight, they contribute less to the thickening of the product.

    All this is NOT nanotechnology though.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    @Microformulation correctly pointed out that it is not nanotechnology. The key thing to keep in mind for nanotechnology is particle size (definitions differ from in between locations and regulations the EU defines nano materials, as used in cosmetics, as an insoluble or biopersistant and intentionally manufactured material with one or more external dimensions, or an internal structure, on the scale from 1 to 100 nm).

    @ngarayeva001 You have already recieved great answers and this contribute nothing to formulation or dermal efficacy.

    I would increase the scepticism. I just looked at their "Reviews" where you have to input a name - yet all reviewers decided to go with a full name some including middle names or abbreviations - in addition, all 39 are 5 stars, seems off to me.

    So under "The Science" they also have a "Study" (I am using my quotation-quota too fast in this reply) which, not only is not a study but a high school report on the skin - it also blatantly plagiarise from textbooks (Took a random paragraph from page 12 and googled it, the exact paragraph is from Encyclopedia of Biomaterials and Biomedical Engineering, Second Edition, which by the way does not even feature on the reference list).

    As a non-american, what kind of false advertising on cosmetics can be reported to the FTC? Because in my humble opinion the appear out of line in regard to honesty/truthfullness (even within cosmetics).
    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    "I would increase the skepticism. I just looked at their "Reviews" where you have to input a name - yet all reviewers decided to go with a full name some including middle names or abbreviations - in addition, all 39 are 5 stars, seems off to me."

    This is a great observation by @Sibech, that being to be wary of reviews. I have personally sat through a meeting where the Marketing people were openly challenging the staff to get all their Facebook friends to put-up positive reviews. I see these clusters of reviews all the time. Similar names and close dates. Not a single negative review.

    So when a client pushes a bad product with the statement, "It gets great reviews", I am hardly impressed.

    Lastly, I agree. If you want to practice Cosmetic Science, it helps to act and research like a Scientist.

    WOW! I just went back and read the "Science." They state, " Collagen Rx Plus uses Nano Technology to shrink the Collagen Molecule so it can easily be absorbed into the skin."

    Honey, I shrunk the Collagen!


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • It's all about particle size! I am formulating sunscreens right now. You can have really low concentrations of zinc oxide, as the common public like yourself do not like to see high levels of zinc, but all it means is that they are using differing particle sizes along with synthetic boosters.
    If this company freely admits they are using the nano-technology to penetrate the epidermis then that is perfectly fine, they are doing it for a reason!!
    Why don't you tell us what the particle size is and maybe we can give you some more information!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • I was actually thinking about the list (how to assess if the source is legit) that @Microformulation gave me in one of the comments when reading that ‘study’. I couldn’t stop smiling ?
  • Btw I couldn’t find size of that nano collagen in that study.
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited September 2018
    @ngarayeva001
    I prefer cheaper alternatives for both gel formers as TEWL reducers. 
    But I'm a homecrafter, I can imagine the difference for the cosmetic scientists who are formulating professionaly.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Do we really believe that they are "using nano-technology to penetrate the epidermis" by "shrinking the collagen molecule?"

    I have done many sunscreens also and in the case of Zinc oxide, we are arguably dealing with nano-particles with some products but not in this case.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I am still learning, so like trying new ingredients. I always keep HMW (because it forms gel) and SLMW (as a humectant) hyaluronic acid in my stock. I recently overpaid for ULMW (ultra low, 5000 daltons) and saw this ‘nano’ product next day after I tried ULMW it and noticed no difference. Will be calling my serum an ultra serum now :)
  • Hello might sound stupid but, if you buy the HMW, blend is dry for 10-20-30min.... you will get you LMW no? just need a lab to give you the MW distribution I would think (GPC)...  this does not answer your question but could be a cheap alternative to so called nano product
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    The third ingredient in their ingredients list is "Advance Moisture Complex" which is definitely not correct the INCI listing.

    Incorrect ingredients listing is always a red flag for me.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    So are money-back guarantees and monthly fulfillment plans ... This is typical sales/marketing model used on the Internet mostly by companies that have only one product ... and they are generally less than credible.

    File a Trademark for "Advanced Moisture Complex" and never identify it anywhere in your marketing except on the package label so one can only determine the actual ingredients by purchasing the product.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • I just wonder if people actually return it or not. Because it is very clear for me that this product won't do much. Also, has anyone ever seen tocopheryl acetate as a second ingredient?
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited September 2018
    @ngarayeva001
    I just wonder if people actually return it or not. Because it is very clear for me that this product won't do much.
    I also wonder. But the placebo effect must be high and a lot of people are willing to believe pseudo science bullcrap. Google 'La Mer' cream and look up the ingredients and the prices. They have so many customers and get so much positive reviews, it's almost unbelievable.
  • @Doreen, I am very well familiar with La Mer. I repurchased it several times before I got into formulating :smiley: it has an excessively long list of ingredients that made me, at that point, believe that it must be something backed by science. However the trick with all of those expensive products (La Mer, Sublimage by Chanel, Skin Caviar by La Prairie, SK-II etc.) is that they offer very pleasant application properties and "luxurious" feel. They achieve it mostly due to addition of polymers and right combination of surfactants, thickeners and emollients. Regarding this particular product, they claim to be "natural" and use a conventional combination (cetearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, ceteareth-20, xantham, etc.) that doesn't provide this "luxurious" feel. That is why I am so curious why people don't just return it.
  • Also, not sure about this "nano-collagen" but regular hydrolised collagen protein makes formula rather sticky, which doesn't add anything good to the application.
  • @ngarayeva001, If it is sticky. Add "dry flow" (comercial name) or arrow root powder. The sticky will be gone even the oily. I tried dry flow but not arrow root powder.
    Is nano technology is also called nanosomes? I am looking for multivitamin A, C and E nanosomes. But, can not find in google. 
  •  @ngarayeva001 dry-flow making cosmetic called "Tapioca Starch" 
  • @Dtdang I believe you are looking for slow release retinol ‘liposomes’. If so, makingcosmetics sell them. I have not heard about vitamin C or E liposomes. https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Vitamin-A-Liposomes-retinol_p_1222.html
  • Thanks 
  • Hello, 

    I would be happy to address all of your questions.  

    SABRINA Collagen Rx Plus anti-aging face cream is an excellent product.  We offer a money back guarantee because we fully believe in our face cream, and it is important to us that our customers are 100% satisfied with their purchase.  We are so confident in our product and it's efficacy, we are offering a 30 day free trial.  People can order the product and try it Free for 30 days.  Even the shipping is Free.  If they love the product they will be charged after the 30 day trial.  If they decide they are not happy with the product they can return the jar and unused cream and they will not be charged.  To me, that states that we absolutely believe in our product, and we are confident that our customers will love it as well.

    ngarayeva001 That is why I am so curious why people don't just return it. 

    Btw @Ngarayeva001, you are correct!  My product is everything I claim it to be and no one has ever returned my product.  I would like to know how you gained that information. Also @ngarayeva001 why did you use hashtags in your first post in this thread?  Did you read the terms and agreement section when you chose to join this forum?  

    @Ngarayeva001 ;
    Hello All,
    I recently found this product https://sabrina-beauty.com/the-science/ with a pretty generic ingredients list (except for misspelling “tocopheryl acetat”). The manufacturer is making really bold claims about using “nano-size collagen” that “penetrates” through stratum corneum and “rebuilds lost collagen”. I am staying more than sceptical, but very curious about the opinion of the professionals on this forum. What are your thoughts on ingredients like this “nano” collagen and ultra-low molecular weight hyaluronic acid? I understand that skin is a natural barrier and this product won’t restore lost collagen, but is it worth it to pay more for ingredients with lower molecular weight?
    Thanks in advance!
    Tagged: 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    @SJane I see lots of Marketing, no Science.

    I have never seen a prohibition on the use of hashtags. I have never seen the moderator delete a post for this reason. @Perry?

    Could you address;
    • The manufacturer is making really bold claims about using “nano-size collagen” that “penetrates” through stratum corneum and “rebuilds lost collagen”.
    • "Collagen Rx Plus uses Nano Technology to shrink the Collagen Molecule so it can easily be absorbed into the skin."

    These are unauthorized drug claims.




    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I probably missed something about hashtags. @SJane, I am sure your product is an excellent product :smile: You have a right to believe in it, and we have a right to stay sceptical. There is no legit study that proves that topical collagen does anything except for moisturising skin. If you can provide that study I, and I am sure everyone in this forum, will be happy to change our opinion. But going back to the claims, what is the size of your collagen in dalton?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @SJane Believe me, the FDA monitors claims and will intervene. I would look at your claims before you get a warning letter.



    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @SJane, @ngarayeva001, @Microformulation - There is no prohibition on hashtags on this forum. Of course, if they become annoying we might start removing them but it's not a problem at the moment.
     
    I'm curious what is meant by "the terms and agreement section" on this forum.  Where was this found?
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    @SJane confidence in the product is a great thing to have, why would the customer believe you if you do not believe it. However none of your available "Science" is proper.

    As it is mentioned earlier - Nano does not refer to the size of a molecule but the size of a particle (or agglomerate of particles). With that said it is also impossible to shrink a molecule.
    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • I bought the Christie Brinkley trial cream, we came out in a rash & it was so hard to send it back, the return shipped cost almost as much as the cream. It is a scam!!!!!!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • Oops, they corrected tocopherol acetate correctly. Good job, SJane!
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    Yes, but they have other errors in the INCI Deck.
    Advance Moisture Complex is not an approved designation.
    "Marine Collagen" is not the approved nomenclature.


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I might be missing something but tocopherol acetate is a second ingredient. Is there any reason to use it at a concentration higher than 0.5%?
  • Probably the only material above 1% is water.
  • No Vitamin E is usually used at 1% so they may have written the INCI names in the wrong order?
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited September 2018
    Oh wow! I think you are right @Dr Catherine Pratt . It didn’t even came to my mind, I thought it’s just a weird formulation. Now I noticed that other ingredients are also not in descending order! It’s very unlikely that they added more hyaluronic acid than dimethicone and emulsifiers.
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