Natural Shampoo Thinning in Larger Batches

Hi All!  I've successfully made small batches of this natural shampoo with no problems.  I usually hand mixed with a whisk. Once I scaled up to 450oz batches the product started thinning when bottled and separated leaving me with an oily liquid at the top and of course a normal looking blend at the bottom.  Could someone review my formula and let me know if there is an obvious culprit?  I'm wondering if I need to allow this to hydrate for 24 hours before I add in the surfactants.  Or maybe its the high shear blending I did with the larger batch (below surface so no air bubble problems).  Thanks!

Formula:
Distilled Water 74.62%
Ayurvedic Blend 3.15% 
     (Dried Indian Herbs)     
Guar Hydro. Chloride 1.00%
Optiphen + 1.00%
Glycerin 2.00%
Shea Butter (Liq.) 1.00%
Glycol Stearate IP 2.00%
Polyglucoside 10.71%
Decyl Glucoside 4.02%
Frag: Amber Noir 0.50%
Citric Acid 0.00%

Comments

  • Sounds as if your surfactants are not sufficiently good emulsifiers.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • @Belassi what surfactant addition would you suggest? The cationic guar and the Glycol Stearate IP aren't sufficient considering the low amount of oils? I did check to see what the hlb for the liquid shea butter would be and it's an 8. The glycol stearate has an hlb capacity of 6. But once again I figured since I had such a low oil phase that I didn't have to completely worriy about the hlb especially since I was mixing it with the cationic guar. Is it possible that I could just add more glycol stearate or do you think I should go add another secondary emulsifier to bring the hlb capacity up to 8 or more? I appreciate your's and anyone else's response. You can probably tell I'm somewhat attached to this formula. It has great results and sensory.
  • I think I figured it out! I could possibly add a peg to the formula such as Peg-6 or peg-120 (both of which I have on hand). Or I can add a polysorbate 80 as a secondary surfactant. All of which have higher hlb. I guess I'll have to test out these additions. Please let me know if anyone thinks I'm going down the wrong path.
  • I would use ALES instead of the decyl glucoside. It's an excellent emulsifier. Polysorbates suppress foam.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • "Polysorbates suppress foam."
    Is it noticeable even for low concentrations like 2%?
    Thank you
  • Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately anything with "sulfate" in the name will run our customers off.  Even though we try to educate on the differences it's still a non-starter from the beginning with our customer base. I think what may have happened is I subbed Shea Butter for the Shea Nut Oil and got the adverse reaction.  I'm going to do comparisons between the two options and see if I get my original results before I need to change the surfactants.  Thanks!  
  • Do MOST customers really know what sulfates are?
    Or just the few, loud complainers?

    Related: Most customers don't know what Parabens are.
    https://chemistscorner.com/do-consumers-think-about-parabens-in-cosmetics/

    You can sell low-sulfate as 'the best of both worlds', 'the fine balance between mildness and an underwashed, oily, SMELLY hair', 'you'll get accustomed to a slightly smelly hair, but those around you will notice it'...
    The 'smelly' word sells = fear marketing. 
    https://chemistscorner.com/5-reasons-sulfate-free-products-exist/

    You can increase mildness by adding Cocamidopropyl Betaine to match total sulfates (limited to about 5% as to avoid excess viscosity), then add another surfactant to improve foaming a bit.
    (NOT glucosides as they kill sulfates viscosity)
    https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4338/any-ideas-for-making-liquid-soap-really-water-thin-so-its-suitable-for-foamer-bottles
  • Ah, smelly hair! One of our successful Facebook promotions centered on this.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • @Gunther rarely a customer knows what they are buying. Mostly they are guided by the big companies making claims in comercials. Even when the natural and organic market is a growing niche, the "concerned and conscientized" are guided by what they read on a blog or magazines with no scientific backup.

    I suspect some of the fearmongering news are instigated by the big monsters to shake the market.

    Ontopic: 15% glucosides ain't much?. Given the allergies issue they might cause I always considered it as a secondary surfactant, and never used it for the that reason.
  • If you want an excellent emulsifier but not a sulphate, you could try one of the Akypo products, eg. RLM45-CA. It's 90% AS.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
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