Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating oleic acid and sulphonic acid

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  • oleic acid and sulphonic acid

    Posted by nabil on May 9, 2017 at 9:38 pm

    dear all,

    how i can neutralize sulphonic acid and oleic acid in same batch with potassium hydroxide?

    sulphonic acid 8%
    oleic acid 3%

    potassium hydroxide %?

    thank you

    johnb replied 6 years, 10 months ago 4 Members · 20 Replies
  • 20 Replies
  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 9, 2017 at 10:29 pm

    DO not due it all in situ, sulfonate first and add sulfonated oleic to base.Better yet get Turrkey red oil, which is oleic sulfonic acid and just neutralize with NaOH.Add acid to base.

  • nabil

    Member
    May 10, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ, do you mean that i need to mix sulphonic acid to oleic acid FIRST. then add it to the base (potash).

    the naoh will give hard soap right?!
    nb: i do not have turkey red oil.

    thank you

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 10, 2017 at 9:23 pm

    first of all i misread oleic as castor oil so forget Turkey red oil I don’t think you have the experience to do this yourself:you can buy potassium salt of sulfonated oleic acid at http://www.chemnet.com/cas/en/68609-93-8/9-Octadecenoic-acid-(Z)-,-sulfonated,-potassium-salts.html

  • belassi

    Member
    May 10, 2017 at 9:49 pm

    What IS sulfonated oleic acid and what is it used for? I have oleic acid here and sulfonic acid …

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 2:30 pm

    #Belassi  Surfactant good wetting and dispersant:sulfonate group on first carbon (opposite end of carbonyl moiety could make it a good lime soap dispersant.I am sure there are other suppliers but see:
    http://www.vicchem.com/prods/pdb/pdb-AUROPOL438.pdf

  • johnb

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 3:06 pm

    What is sulphonic acid? The term requires an identifier e.g alkylbenzene sulphonic acid.

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 3:20 pm

    I took it to mean oleum H2SO4.SO3 as used in sulfonation of Alkylbenzene but this is not relevant to fact you cant just mix these ingredients together as sulfonation is exothermic and requires special handling.Henkel uses SO3—-https://www.google.com/patents/US5294726-net/net this is not formulation :it  is process development.I dont think query belongs in this forum.

  • johnb

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 3:25 pm

    I’ve worked in a plant where oleum sulfonations were carried out. Not something I would carry out without full protective gear or without safety assistance!

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 3:32 pm

    Now you get my point.Respectfully I have carried out hundreds of sulphonations (big deal) and was in on conversion of branched chain alkylbenzene sulfonates to LAS together with the incorporation of the later into consumer products.

  • belassi

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    So if I go into my lab, get a beaker, add some oleic acid and then some sulfonic acid, it’s likely to get very hot?

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    What do you think?

  • nabil

    Member
    May 11, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    Thank you guys for your valuable experiences.  Is it  possible to mix oliec acid and alkylbenzene sulphonic acid INSITU with KOH and how? 

    This might be dangerous and required safety procedures.  But FYI the volumes used are low. 

    Thx

  • johnb

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 7:11 am

    Why are you using ABS free acid rather than the much safer (and easier to store) ready neutralised material? Likewise with the oleic acid. Even though oleic acid is more or less harmless, KOH certainly isn’t.

    By using preneutralised ingredients it will save you from some possibly complex calculations.

  • nabil

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 11:08 am

    Johnb,
    that’s mean that I can not do it!!!!? 

  • johnb

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm

    Yes, you can do it but I am trying to help you avoid having to handle dangerous chemicals and complex neutralisation procedures.

    Although the reactions involved appear to be simple and straightforward, the reality is that you are dealing with materials that are not 100% pure. KOH is normally only 80% concentration. Oleic acid is of very variable constitution depending on its origin and ABSA is of variable purity depending on the residues of acid(s) present and of the chain length distribution of the alkane used in the synthesis of the alkylbenzene.

    Far  better and easier for the producers of the prime materials (who already have the knowledge and experience required in dealing with their products) to carry out the rough work for you.

    I am all for an easy life and if I can get my ABSA already prepared as the potassium salt and my oleic acid as potassium oleate, I am all for that - particularly if, as you say, only small amounts are involved.

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 3:08 pm

    Johnb is right why complicate things just buy the materials neutralized and mix as you desire

  • belassi

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 5:17 pm

    alkylbenzene sulphonic acid
    Will you guys please get your information correct? Are we talking about sulphonic acid (a lime scale remover) or something else? It appears to me “something else” - I have been wondering why adding an inorganic acid to a fatty acid would achieve anything.

  • drbobverdient-biz

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 6:05 pm

    Finally found out the query was for neutralization of alkyllbenzene sulphonic acid together with Oleic acid using KOH in-situ. suggested he get samples of each finished pre-neutralized material and mix.Applicaion was not disclosed.

  • nabil

    Member
    May 12, 2017 at 9:56 pm

    OK.  Thanks guys :) . I was asking to neutralise either alkylbenzene sulphonic acid and oleic acid as I am living in country where the finished preneutralized materials are not common stuffs here.  For a such raw materials need to be imported with big quantities.  This where my enquiry. Thx guys anyway 

  • johnb

    Member
    May 13, 2017 at 6:58 am

    Belassi, please calm down and read through all the replies made here.

    Are you confusing sulphonic acid with sulphamic acid as a lime scale remover?

    Nabil, if you must neutralise the materials yourself it would be best to do this separately and mix the neutralised products. It will be necessary to titrate to amount of alkali required as, as mentioned before, the starting material are impure.

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