Need custom formula skin care with probiotics

edited January 2016 in Requests / Opportunities
I am looking for a chemist / company to custom formulate a skin care product line with probiotic with the purposes of applying it topically to skin for skin issues such as acne, fungus etc.

Please let me know if you can refer me to a cosmetic chemist to create this formula for me. 

Comments

  • You're talking about an OTC drug rather than a cosmetic, as far as the USA is concerned, and at the least a 'cosmeceutical' in other countries, and therefore my first question is, what is the target market location?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2016
    Actually, this is indeed a cosmetic product.  The "Probiotic" is simply plant oligosaccharides that are spray dried onto Maltodextrin and complexed with Lactobacillus.  The marketing gimmick makes it sound way more .... microbiological.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • I thought that anything that claimed to treat acne was an OTC drug in the USA? Am I wrong?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    You are correct. If @probioticqueen makes any drug claims like anti-acne or anti-fungal then it is an OTC and probiotics can only be included as claims ingredients.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2016
    The only way @probioticqueen can make anti-acne OTC drug claims is if her products contain one of the four OTC Monograph acne actives ... Sal Acid, Resoucinol, Sulfur or Benzoyl Peroxide ... in the allowed percentage ranges and/or combinations.

    Lyophilized Lactobcillus "Probiotic" will have no effect on acne whatsoever and is not approved as an OTC anti-acne drug active ingredient.  It can, however, be included in a product that contains one of the four Monograph anti-acne topicals, such as 2% SA, but it is the SA that gives the right to make the OTC drug claim.  The Probiotic is just another cosmetic ingredient in that product.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @probioticqueen

    Check CLR, they have some good ones.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Chemist77:

    Here is the thing that is absolutely hysterical about the marketing gimmick of putting "Probiotics" (Lactobacillus) in cosmetic products ... just how is it that the Lactobacillus survives your preservation system in your cosmetic product to then replicate on the surface of the skin and "crowd out" natural microflora?

    Simple answer:  It won't ... the Lactobacillus will be "killed" by the preservative in your product!
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @chemist77 thank you what is CLR?
    @markbroussard no intention of making any claims - I am fully aware of the FDA regulations and this is indeed a cosmetic not an OTC- I just need the appropriate source to help indicate the correct strains to use that can help with skin disorders.
  • also my understanding is that its Bacillus coagulans genus with a pH of 4.0-4.5 
  • It's quite tempting to make a really thick natural yoghurt and market it as "Magic Lactic Skin Paradise Probiotic Yogbog."
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @probioticqueen:

    Here you go, I think this is what you're looking for:

    www.ganedenprobiotics.com/bonicel/the-science-behind-bonicel

    There are a couple of other companies besides CLR that make Probiotic Complex cosmetic ingredients.  Hope that helps.

    Beware however of companies that are making claims of their Probiotic bacteria growing on the skin ... That is wholly false.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    edited January 2016
    @MarkBroussard

    I completely agree with you in general but isn't there anyone who must have raised this query to the manufactures of such ingredients???? I mean even the companies are selling them as preserved so I am wondering how is it possible to sell a deactivated active?????
    Case in point Repair Complex CLR PF preserved with phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate. 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Chemist77:

    That is exactly my point.  The Probiotic bacteria that have been deactivated and lyophilized (freeze dried) will reconstitute when placed in the formulation, but once reconstituted would be destroyed by the preservative.  So, what you essentially end up with are dead bacteria in your formulation.  They will not grow on your skin once applied.  And, some manufacturers are marketing that the Probiotic bacteria will grow on your skin and crowd out the skin's natural flora!

    Now, I have seen a couple of more reputable suppliers who are still advertising their concoction as "Probiotic" but are honest enough to state that their ingredient is actually a purified concoction of processed Probiotic bacterial cellular material.

    Some suppliers must be outright lying and others are playing up the "Probiotic" language ... 
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • edited March 2016
    I have to ask then, how is Bonicel and CLR being marketed to manufacturers as an ingredient in skin care that has proven to:
    The inclusion of Bonicel was found to: 

    Decrease the number of coarse skin lines by 20.57%
    Show a 17% increase in the number of subjects showing improvement of eye area fine lines & wrinkles
    Show a 8.33% increase in the number of subjects showing improvement of under eye puffiness
    Increase skin hydration by 7.13%
    Decrease skin shadows by 7.09%
    Increase skin smoothness by 4.33%
    Increase skin elasticity by 3.11%
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2016
    @probioticqueen:

    The point is not that their ingredients do not provide benefits.

    The point is that some companies in this space, ingredients suppliers and consumer products manufacturers alike, are implying or outright stating in their marketing that the "Probiotic" ingredients are actually live bacteria that will replicate on the consumer's face when the cosmetic product is applied.  If the cosmetic product and/or ingredient is preserved, that simply cannot happen under any circumstances.  And, if your end product is not preserved, well you have a whole other problem altogether ... your product will get contaminated on use.  The manufacturer of Bonicel even point out the false advertising by their competitors in their marketing material for Bonicel as a point of differentiation.

    The use of the word "Probiotic" implies live bacterial cultures ... these ingredients are not live bacterial cultures ... they are bacterial cellular material that has been purified.  
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Thanks Mark that is some great insight, appreciated much. 
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    First off, there's this from Bonicel's FAQ:
    Is Bonicel a probiotic?
    Bonicel is a probiotic-derived ingredient. It is derived from the an optimized form of GanedenBC30's fermentation broth. Although a probiotic organism produces Bonicel, Bonicel is not a probiotic.
    So, you see that it is important to pay careful attention to the exact wording of the advertisements from the people selling these products. 

    The CLR material plays a similar trick that's even harder to catch: 
    PROBIOBALANCE CLR™ NP
    ProBioBalance CLR™ NP supplies the skin cells with nutritive elements and allows for the activation of detoxification processes to obtain raw materials for the production of new molecules (e.g. proteins) and energy. As a result, the metabolic activity of skin cells is increased, the skin's immune system is strengthened and the skin is protected against environmental stress.

    Characteristic: ProBioBalance CLR™ NP consists of probiotic bifido cultures, suspended and disintegrated in a biologically active milk-based matrix.
    INCI-Name: Water, Lactose, Milk Protein, Bifida Ferment Lysate

    True, they are selling probiotic cultures, but what they are selling is disintegrated cultures - there's nothing alive left in there at all. But they're being pretty careful not to say that too loudly. 


    This is a useful article:
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @probioticqueen - There are a wide variety of ways in which a company can make impressive sounding claims that don't matter or may not even be true.  Here are some explanations for their claims. 

    1.  They compare their ingredient in a standard lotion versus a non-treated control.  In this case, the lotion is actually providing the benefit but they attribute it to the ingredient.

    2.  They find non-statistically significant differences. Positive results can be just randomness. Without a confidence level given the numbers don't mean much of anything.

    3.  They report differences that don't matter.  What does it mean that skin smoothness is increased by 4.33%?  Would you notice if your skin was 4.33% smoother?  And would you notice is 7% change in your skin elasticity?

    I'm not suggesting that the company is lying.  However, I'm suggesting that the claims being made are not nearly as impressive as they seem or that they necessarily have anything to do with the inclusion of a probiotic. 
  • I agree and understand all of your points and thank you all for the feedback. I am still wondering then, is it possible to use probiotics in some form (ferments?) in skin care that actually are effective for fighting the bad bacteria- or at the very least, good for the skin? in other words, so many of the big name companies like clinique, estee lauder, loreal that are now claiming that the probiotics in their products are effective for reduction redness and smoothing skin etc  are simply adding in the extracts of bifidus?
    There is a manufacturer called Chrisal that claims that their "stabilized" spor form probiotics are wha cleared staff infections in hospitals when used as a cleaning product, so they claim that same technology of the spore form probiotic of bacillus genus can also help with skin issues when applied topically.
     does this make sense?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Germane to the whole issue, here is an article that came up in my Twitter feed. Perry is prominently mentioned.

    http://www.agirlsgottaspa.com/2016/01/probiotic-skin-care-miracle-ingredient-or-marketing-hype/


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited February 2016
    Basically, there is not enough known about the "good bacteria" and the "bad bacteria" on skin. Companies are marketing science that isn't well understood. 

    For example, no one knows how much good bacteria you need or what the effect of removing all bad bacteria has on skin. Big companies use the term "probiotic" because it seems like some scientific concept that consumers have heard (from food) and generally have good feelings about. 

    But no one knows much about what characteristics the skin microbiome should have or not have.

    You have to carefully read the claims that the Big Guys are making. They word it in such a way that it seems like the benefit is linked to the technology when in actuality they are linking the formula to the benefit.

    For example, "This formula, made with probiotics, smooths skin by 75%"

    A claim like this is not a lie but the "made with probiotics" part is not really relevant to supporting the claim.  The claim is really "This formula smooths skin by 75%".  Which is what any moisturizer will do whether it has probiotics or not.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Perry:

    That is a very informative post.  The skin biome is the natural collection of bacteria that grow on the skin and the bacterial populations maintain a relative balance and in normal skin keep each others' population in check.  There really isn't a good way to differentiate, with a cosmetic topical product, between the "good" and the "bad" bacteria.  All bacteria in the biome perform some vital function.  It is when the balance of bacteria get out of whack that problems occur.

    While the claim may not be a lie because of clever wording .... these marketers KNOW they are indeed misleading.  In my book, if you know you're misleading ... you're just plain lying.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Im curious what your thoughts are on this product:
    They claim that they have 12 different strains yet its in water so therefore it cant be live bacteria  or the water would kill the bacteria right?

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @probioticqueen - I personally wouldn't buy or recommend any cosmetic product that doesn't list their ingredients.  Putting "proprietary blend" on their ingredient list is very shady business.

    You also have to look specifically at what they are claiming.  My comments in red.

    "Probiotics are well recognized for protection the gut's microflora and supporting the body's immune system. (not relevant to skin product) But did you know that these friendly beneficial bacteria can also help the skin maintain its barrier and function (what does "help" mean? not defined so it can mean anything) and keep dermal cells healthy?  When sprayed directly on affected area, LiviaOne Probiotics Spray goes to work colonizing to crowd out bad bacteria, fungus, yeast and other pathogens that would disrupt your skin's derma (this is a very specific claim but no proof is given. Also, it's unlikely as every individual has a different skin microbiome.  Also, what does "disrupt your skin's derma" mean?).  Our 12-Strains of symbiotic probiotics spray can help the skin stay balanced, calmer and more resistance to aging (no specific claim and no proof.  How do you balance skin?), plus they are USDA Certified Organic. (this doesn't mean much"

    According to our customers (anecdotal evidence is irrelevant), this is ideal for people who suffer from roasea, rashes, scrapes, cuts, staph-type infections, nose, eye or ear infections, athlete's foot, jock itch, ringworm, and yeast infections.  

    LiviaOne Topical Probiotics can benefit as:

    Protective Shield - not a specific claim. What is the diff between protected & non-protected skin? 
    Antimicrobial Properties - this would make it a drug
    Calming Effect - puffery, means nothing
    Natural Skin Balance - puffery, means nothing
    Dental Caries - this would make it a drug - and why would this matter for a skin product?
    USDA Certified Organic - to assure quality and safety - no it doesn't.

    So, in my view it is a $50 product that doesn't do anything.
  • Actually, if it CAN colonise the skin and displace any kind of native flora and fauna, then who is to assume that the "bad" bacteria are going to suffer? Maybe the "good" ones will be displaced! What total BS.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @probioticqueen, just use buttermilk. It is quite high in lactic acid and you will see an effect.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited February 2016
    This whole concept of "Probiotics" in cosmetic products is shear, utter nonsense.  You simply cannot, under any circumstances, keep microbial cultures alive in an aqueous product for more than 72 hours.  After that, it becomes a contaminated mess of dead bacterial cells.  With no source of energy, the bacteria will simply die off.

    This is nothing more that Certified Organic bullshit.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • You mean, there is no value in all these probiotic yoghurts?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Belassi:

    Completely different situation.  Yogurts are fermented products that contain a source of nutrients and they are kept refrigerated.  

     Far different from a water-based cosmetic product containing no nutrients that is sitting on the shelf at room temperature.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    I want to get back to the original question for a moment.

    There are two ingredients on the market that will allow you to market "probiotic" claims in your skin cream. The fact that it's all puffery and mostly nonsense is irrelevant - the ingredients make any number of claims which can transfer to a product that uses them. 

    To me, the easiest and most cost-effective way to do this is to select a contract manufacturer that is large enough to have its own R&D people, and negotiate a deal that includes your ownership of the formula, and any IP associated with it. 

    If you are insistent on having a cosmetic chemist formulate this for you as a consultant first, we have a list at the top of the discussions, and the national SCC maintains a list at  http://www.scconline.org/referrals/cat/consultants/ 

    If I were you, I'd try to talk to as many consultants as possible. Consultants get paid in different ways, and they're not always completely open about it - some have paid relationships with certain contract manufacturers, and they get a commission if they steer your business to them. Someone who has significantly lower than average prices may have an arrangement like this - or they may be semi-retired, and just consult for the fun of it. It's wise to check.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • eiseneisen Member
    I can report of the successful implementation. A contract manufacturer was not needed, I would like to thank the In Cosmetics. During the fair in NYC last September they provided free-of-charge sessions at the Formulation Lab – a purpose-built laboratory complete with benches and a range of equipment.
    Ww tested the idea of the lyophilised bacteria but wanted to avoid parabens. The solution was simple: Avoid water and sugars which are food for bacteria. The formulation was based on the mixture of lactic acid producing lypohilisate in inert cyclosilicone. Intead of hyaluronic acid as a moisturiser we used glycerine and to exclude water we even added silica gel. To minimize the access of moisture, we decided to use a pumpable spray container. 
    Wanted to share because just looked after the 6 months.
  • Very good, sounds like an unusual product.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • johnbjohnb Member
    What are the esthetics of this product?

    Is there a difference in the cosmetic effects of the product both with and without the lactobacilli?
  • eiseneisen Member
    The idea was to make something usefull as after-sun. 
    Yogurt is a known remedy which brought me to try the sample which I got during the In Cosmetics. 
    It worked well on the sun burned skin. 
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